My preference in elitist fly fishers leans towards those who own all the “best” rods (translation: “most expensive”) and move to custom to beat their buddies.
The little yellow Eagle Claw FeatherLite is a nice casting little rod. $25 at Wally World.
Silver Creek,
Brilliantly stated. Thank you.
No, I’m saying there are many who really can’t afford this rod but will purchase it thinking somehow
they will miraculously catch more fish because of the rod they are fishing, whereas a nice $200.00 rod
in the hand of a proficient fisherman will do the job just as well.
Again, if you can afford “the one” and it makes you feel good owning it, then go for it.
I don’t think anyone is “dumping” on the new rod. Most people won’t or can’t purchase a rod for $500+ everytime a company comes up with a “new and improved” product.
If you can afford to drive the Ferrari then by all means, do so. Some have to stick to the Cadillac, others the Chevrolet. Still some, drive to their fishing stream with their ebay bought low end combo in their rusted out clunker pick-up truch.
Guess what though … they catch fish and have fun doing so, just as you will with your Sage.
I have 11 fly rods and as many reels. However, if you purchased 4 of these “new” rods alone you’d exceed the MSRP of all I own.
I want a rod/reel/backing/line/couple of flies and a half day guided trip for $500.00.
Just my 2?
The same thing goes on in the golf world, and people keep buying clubs that look like a hub cap on a stick. The golf ball is still the same size and the hole diameter is still the same. The evolution of this type of equipment is produced with only one thing in mind, and that is for people to purchase equipment to fix their faults instead of taking lessons or working the kinks out themselfs. It is easier to buy new tech. instead of taking time to work on their game.
Because I still, at 68, work “half a day, every day” ( lest THAT be mis-understood, that’s 6AM to 6PM) , I CAN afford those high end fishin poles. However, I can’t see or justify( FOR MYSELF ONLY) , the “value” as to their utility. They can do NO more or better, anything my TFO can do. I am practical when it comes to fishin and golf . It’s always been the “indian ( Native American) rather than the arrows” philosophy when it comes to my recreational tools. My WORK tools, on the other hand, are the best I can buy. In work tools the quality/utility is more obvious and less subject to opinion and it’s easier to prove “value”.
All the above is MY personal opinion and not meant as a sermon to those of unlike mind.
Mark
PS: And also, after reading the above post by Idice, I did buy one of those “hubcaps”, a DEMO model for $125 and it DID improve my drive by a bunch. But having said that, my “DEMO” new, cost about $375, and NO WAY would I have jumped on it in that case. The technology of the larger driver is obious. Larger head=easier to make contact. BUT, a Wilson Staff #6 iron ain’t no worse than #6 by Callaway ( at 6 times the cost)
Those are your words and not mine.
What I am saying is that people buy the best tools they can afford; and those tools, regardless of cost, have benefited from previous technology paid for by first adopters of that technology.
How do we price objects in the real world?
I will submit we price objects by how many hours we have to work to afford to buy that object. If you are the average auto worker making $28.00/hr, a $700.00 fly rod is 25 hours of gross pay. If you a sales associate at Walmart at $8.81/hour that same rod is 80 hours or 2 weeks pay before taxes. If you are a pharmacist at that same store averaging $57/hr, that rod is 12 hours of gross pay.
So that rod that cost the Walmart sales associate 2 weeks of pay is 1.5 days for a Walmart pharmacist.
What I am saying is that value to any given customer is relative. To the sales associate the Sage is overpriced, to the pharmacist, it is not. Not for a sport that is his/her passion. For the auto worker, it is also affordable if he/she saves for it.
Do folks buy a Sage for prestige? Actually “prestige” depends more on other people’s views than the owner’s.
- : standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion
- : commanding position in people’s minds
If you think a Sage confers “prestige” that is a self-referring statement. It actually says as much or more about the person that thinks it is prestige than the person who owns a Sage.
My view is that I don’t know why that person has a Sage. To think that I do, confers an ability to myself that frankly, I don’t think I or anyone has unless that person has told them directly.
I think the point is that they are over priced. To stay in business companies must discontinue models and come out with new ones (bigger and better or lighter and more sensitive) to generate more income. The amount of money a person makes is not the point. I don’t believe an $800 rod will help you catch any more fish than a $100 rod–it depends on the talent of the person using it. But, if someone wants to buy one that’s their business.
I agree with Lastchance, That’s the way things go.
How bout that 2010 model 8ft EagleClaw glass rod ! That got raves from the dedicated glass junkies.
Is that why my 2, like new, Howald 1950s era Wonderrods will remain in the closet.
?
I hear that. If I could afford to buy ANY Sage, I could fur shur afford to be out on the water more…kinda like if I could afford a lodge and guide in Montana, I could afford to fish more in California (and Patagonia, Kamchatka, New Zealand, etc) more too.
Okay, I just pulled my trailer up to this camp ground. I for one, am going to be in line to BUY this “ONE”. or at least see if it suits my casting style. Prices go up because material goes up. Because the people putting them together need cost of living raise. Because the designer requires more…and so on, just like EVERYTHING ELSE! Even TFO has gone up, come on. Speaking of TFO, what new line would they come up with if the big name companies with the big name designers were not setting the pace.
I bought one of the FIRST T3 rods, advertised as the lightest out on the market, and it was…but because of that technology, someone else thought, I can beat that…and they did. It has to keep going, and as long as it gets better and better, GREAT!.
I am getting older, and have the money so light is very good.
I don’t see the rod as being the problem as much as wallets. But, why some have to justify they are cheap and proud of it alludes me.
You don’t think it is worth it,? If you are a fly fisher that doesn’t even physically check this out, but still gives judgement is just wrong and ignorant in my opinion.
Now if it isn’t in your budget and you feel the need to justify it in your head that it isn’t any good is also wrong and ignorant.
But, it does give you a chance to vent I guess, just like I am doing…
I agree.
Most of the folks that say a cheaper rod can do what the latest technology fall into two categories.
The first category are those that have never tested the rod in actual fishing. When I buy a rod. I actually fish it by borrowing a rod. That is what I did with the GLoomis GLX I use in Montana. That is what I did with the Gary Borger rods I fish in Wisconsin and Montana. I fished both then bought. Those who actually have never used the rod, really just think their equipment is just as good.
When the consesensus of the users of a new rod is that it is better than what came before, that means something. The Winston original BX series, the Sage LL series, the Sage RPL, The GLoomis GLX, etc. These are rods that set new standards. Now we have the new Orvis Helios, The Sage One, etc. When the users say this rod is better than past rods, I believe that they are. What is beyond me is how someone can say that they are not without fishing it.
The second category are fishers who use their rods in situations where new technology doesn’t change the situation very much. If you are fishing a pond for panfish and you never get into fishing technical trout water or a big river like the Madison River, I say, yup, you don’t need the Sage One. BUT you can’t say that the Sage Rod is not “better” overall than the rod you use because that Sage can fish what you fish and it can fish better overall than your old rod in technical water.
Those who say that it is the fisherman that matters, have really used what is called a red herring fallacy. It states a truism, that is irrelevant in discussing what rod is better. That statement can be said about reels, fly lines, leaders, etc, etc. It adds nothing to the discussion about fly rods or any other equipment. This argument is trotted out all the time, kind of like saying it is the presentation rather than "XYZ "that is important. Substitute any topic about catching fish for “XYZ”. I guarantee you someone will say XYZ doesn’t matter, presentation matters.
I am getting the impression (and mind you I do not mean this as a slam or anything bad) that the ones that are content with the $14 Eagle Claw and what not are as you stated perfectly, fishing a very limited style.
I am also getting the impression that these same people will fish Bait, or Spinning if the fly isn’t working. Again, I am not judging or slamming, whatever works for you.
But true FLY FISHERS that have chosen this path only, surely can see the need for new technology and performance. I have to think, one would be fooling them self if they didn’t.
I am not saying one should go out and buy the top of the line, I am not saying you will catch more fish, but I will say, it will make it more enjoyable and easier. If it is easy, it gets better.
Just my feeling.
I hear an podcast today from a bamboo rod maker. One question he was asked was whether he would make a rod according to the taper design of a Payne, Leonard, etc. His answer was very revealing. He said when he started making bamboo, he did because he didn’t know much about bamboo rod design.
Now he will not make the older tapers - “been there, done that” was his reply. His reasoning was sound. It wasn’t that these are bad designs but they are designs for a different era, when bamboo was used mainly to fish sets of 3 or 4 wet flies and the rods were designed for that purpose. Now the modern rod is designed to cast tighter loops and longer leaders.
Basically he said the needs of the modern fly fisher have moved on into the types of fishing that were not the mainstay of the older bamboo era. So he said, he would not make older designs because what he was interested in was advancing the bamboo rod for modern casting. He also noted that he is a casting instructor and as such, he knew how to change his designs. He said there are plenty of other makers who will make those rods. He kind of sounds like Sage, doesn’t he.
When asked whether he made hollow bamboo rods, he said initially he did not because when he looked at these rods and casted them. They were hollow only up to a certain point and then the rest of the bamboo section(s) were solid. So although the butt of the rod was lighter, the tips were the same and the rods casted the same and the swing weight of the rod was not that much different. He gave it some thought and he has devised a way to make hollow sections all the way up to the top. He said that this does make the rod lighter to cast so now he makes and sells this rod.
So it is about performance, whether you are fishing bamboo or graphite.
He said that every rod designer (and presumably, every rod company) stands on the shoulders of those that came before. That is basically what I have been saying. Why keep making the same thing? Unless you are making anvils, you are likely in a business that requires you to improve or die. That is the nature of business and that includes the fly rod business.
I am glad the USA rod companies continue to improve their product. It is one of the few remaining business where the USA in the lead. When the Japanese or the Europeans want the latest in fly rods, they look to the USA and that is good for all of us including you, even if you personally don’t buy those rods.
I never said “the one” couldn’t somehow be better structurally than a good $200.00 rod.
Just said that a good fisherman can catch as many fish with the less expensive one.
I also fish “technical” tailwaters as well as bluegill ponds.
I would also say I can afford “the one” but I’ll never spend that kind of dough on a graphite rod.
I also cast, and hopefully am able to fish any rod before I buy it as I would think most thoughtful anglers would.
Just don’t tell me it will make me a better fisherman. I don’t buy it…literally!
I’ve fished a few times with an old fellow who uses a Shakespeare WonderRod and a South Bend auto reel
and he does just fine.
Now, I believe I’ll go fishin’ for some red herring!
p.s. I fish bamboo almost exclusively and I don’t believe any modern makers are making the ole
9’ wet fly rods. As you stated, their is no demand for them ,although they can be quite enjoyable at times.
As to bamboo rod tapers there is really nothing new under the sun.
A slight tweak here or there. As to hollowing, I’ll pass on the extra cost of that also.
If you want a more crisp action (always the argument) then find a solid taper that suits your style.
They’re readily built.
I just wanted to add one more experience. Sorry, not a Sage or the ONE, but something I would like to share.
I had clients last week. A husband and wife. I went with a fellow guide. He had two Redington Trout rods rigged up with matching reels. 9’ 5 wt.
Total newbies, so we got them practicing flipping the indicator up stream and follow/mend. They got this down quick.
While the gal was cast and doing quite well, I rigged up a different set up with my spare. It was a 9’ 5 wt. Orvis TL (the older top of the line version).
I handed this set up to the gal my set-up. I did mention total newbie… she flipped the indicator up stream, but this time it went 5’ further with ease. After the second cast she screamed out…“OMG!
this rod is so much nicer!!!” Again, total newbie. Oh and the reel was a CFO loaded with Shark Skin.
My point, a total inexperienced person could tell the difference in a minute…
This happens all the time, so not an isolated instant, and they did not know the price difference, I didn’t feel it was required to say. Didn’t want to “SCARE”
them with sticker cost, but I am sure, several clients wouldn’t care after feeling the difference.
It made it easier for them to delicately get the fly out to the fish, so of course my answer is,…it definitely caught them more fish and made THEM better fishers.
It’s just some of the old timers that are stubborn…LOL
I am glad you said that.
Ok All. Good thread. Remember each one of us is entitled to an opinion. No need to stray across the line.
Do not make REE or myself close this one.
Like I said above, Good thread. But I had some communication from other members that felt the thread was straying across the line.
I went back over the entire postings, saw a few left handed digs, Just take my word for it. “Play nice”. Would like to cut it off at the pass.
No one likes to shut down a thread or give out "warnings: more than I do. My advise is think about your wording before you post it.
Play nice
Denny
Doesn’t speak well to the Redingtons.
Yeah, I’m an oletimer and I suppose you could say stubborn…LOL.