Rod Weight Designation

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

I have been puzzling over this for a long time and finally decided to ask. Why do some rods have a single weight designated and others are shown as 3/4 or 7/8? Some manufactures show some lines of rods one way and others the other. Redington is just one example. Usually it is their less expensive line that has this dual line weight designation. Is it that the quality control on these less expensive rods is so loose that they don’t know how they are going to come out or is there some other explanation?

It would sure be a help if a representative of one of the rod companies would explain this. If not does someone else have the answer?

Bob

2

I may be an odd duck for this but… I won’t buy a rod that has 2 weights listed on it. I have wondered the same thing, is the tolorance that loose? Thing is, I’ve casted 4 weights from big name companies that act more like a 6 and vice versa. I’m really looking forward to some knowledgable response on this one.

3

Generally assumed as DT/WF, e.g. on a 3/4 rod DT3 or WF4 should load the rod.

Of course you must try it out. They are individuals.

4

Weight loads a rod, not a line size. The numbers on a rod are just a generalized recommendation.

Here’s the AFTMA standards table-
Line rating- weight in grains (first 30 feet)- tolerances
1…60…54-66
2…80…74-86
3…100…94-106
4…120…114-126
5…140…134-146
6…160…152-168
7…185…177-193
8…210…202-218
9…240…230-250
10…280…270-290
11…330…318-342
12…380…368-392

Looking at the table, you’ll see that 60 feet of a DT 2-weight line will load a 6-weight rod the same as 30 feet of a 6-weight line (excepting the obvious timing differences in casting 60 and 30 feet of line). About 15 to 20 feet of 5-weight line loads my 2-weight rod just right for very short distance casting. The ratings on rods are just a rough guideline to go by for average conditions. You can put whatever line you want on whatever rod you like and do what you please with it, nothing is absolute and rods that are rated X/Y are just fine to fish with and have little to do with “tolerances”.

[This message has been edited by OkieBass133 (edited 18 February 2005).]

5

my understanding is that the lighter line will quicken the action of the rod, while the heavier one will slow it down. I may have that bass ackwards as I’m working off memory and not experience, hell I’m a child of the seventies.

furthermore, I’ve heard that most (good)rods’ll cast a line rated +/- one. so a five weight should be able to handle a 4-5-6 weighted line should you choose to equip it that way.

I have two rods rated for dual weights and both cast wonderfully w/ either line (gatti 2/3 and steffen 4/5).

mgj

6

Mikey,

Just to make sure you don’t have a misconception about rod ‘actions’.

The ‘action’ of a rod relates to how it ‘flexes’ or ‘bends’.

The ‘action’ of a rod is built into it, and doesn’t ‘change’ with the amount of weight applied. All adding or subtracting weight does is change how ‘far’ a rod will flex, not the ‘pattern’ or ‘characteristics’ of that flex.

So, a lighter weight (lighter ‘line’) will flex the rod ‘less’ than a heavier weight (heavier ‘line’). It takes less ‘time’ to flex a rod a shorter distance, so the cast can be made ‘quicker’ or ‘faster’, but that is the TIMING of the ‘CAST’ and has nothing to do with the ‘action’ of the rod.

You can ‘slow’ the action of a rod by shortening it (from either end), and ‘speed up’ a rod action by lengthening it at the butt section.

Also, most good rods will handle much more than just one line wieght in either direction. A five weight, even a cheap one, will cast well with line weights from 2 through 9. My 1 wt. works well with lines from 1 through 6. I prefer an 8 wt. line for my older and ‘novice’ casting friend on the 3 wt. I built for him.

You can’t ‘hurt’ a rod by putting a fly line on it, even one far above the ‘rating’.

Sometimes, doing so is a GOOD thing.

Good Luck!

Buddy

[url=HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML:327f0]HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML[/url:327f0]

7

I have a 5/6 Garcia rod that I bought for $30.00. The thing casts bullets. I will never part with it. I am using a six weight-forward on it and it zings just fine. Don’t let numbers prevent you from having a rod that gives you pleasure.

8

Buddy Sanders,
I disagree with one thing in your post if I’m reading it correctly. Shortening a rod will make it “faster” in today’s terminology, not slower and vice versa. If I’m correct, I think that you knew that.

Ol’ Bill

P.S. If I’m wrong I don’t know the difference between “fast” and “slow” in regard to actions and my wife is correct!

B

9

Thank all of you for the responses. The problem seems to be that some of us do not have stores nearby that carry all of the sponsors fine rods so that we may compare them, nor are we able to attend the large shows with their casting pools. We must rely on what the manufacture tells us.

When this information appears inconsistent between one line of rods of a given manufacturer and another line by that same manufacturer, it’s confusing and I ask why they do that?

The rod manufacturers all market excelent products but it is not inconceivable to me that perhaps a manufacturer has tighter tolerances for his $600 rod than for his $100 rod. I think that I would.

The question remains, why does a given manufacturer use different line weight designations on one line of rods than on another?

10

John Waite’s ‘Serious Flyfishing with Survey Results’ is a provocative read that can answer a lot of line/rod questions.
One problem…it’s easy to form a negative opinion of Mr Waite before finishing the 1st chapter. Keeping that in mind…in my humble opinion…the book still has a lot of useful info.

Regards
nam

[This message has been edited by namekagon (edited 19 February 2005).]

11

“You can ‘slow’ the action of a rod by shortening it (from either end), and ‘speed up’ a rod action by lengthening it at the butt section.”

This statement is correct, IMHO.

Regards,
FK

12

Old Bill,

Actually, my statement is correct as written. Shortening a rod blank from either end slows the action of that blank.

I sent you a detailed E-mail explaining it.

Good Luck!

Buddy

[url=HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML:baab0]HTTP://HOMETOWN.AOL.COM/RSAN2708/INDEX.HTML[/url:baab0]

13

Bob

I don’t know about the two line designation on your Redington rod. I have been told that a two line designation such as 5/6 was 5wt double taper, 6wt weight forward. Because the first 30’weigh the same you could use a 5wt dt for dry fly work and a 6wt wf for streamers.

I have an early generation Sage DS2 rated for 6/7 line. According to the folks at Sage, the rod was designed for 6wt line. The reason that they added 7 on the rod was that a beginning fly fisher could overline it thus helping the rod load a little easier. I tried throwing a 7wt line on it once and it seemed a little ‘wild’. So have always used a 6wt in wf and on occassions in a dt.

14

Bob,

The weights indicated are a guide (as JC mentionned). You really must try the rod with a couple different lines to see if it’s for you. (and the reel too)

Any rod can throw any line, it’s just not fun. Heck, a friend out here can “cast” a fair bit of line without a rod at all. It is work though.

Over or under lining doesn’t change the action of the rod, it changes OUR casting stroke (frequency and amplitude). When you cast a rod/line combination that is dialed in for your style, it is a pleasure, when it’s not, it’s less fun.

Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec

[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 21 February 2005).]

15

Just so it’s clear, the only standard that exists currently, as indicated earlier in this string, is for fly line weights. It is up to the rod manufacturer to determine what line weight is best suited to a particular rod. Cortland has been dual designating its brand of fly rods for many years based on the principal (for example) that a 5/6 would refer to a rod best suited for a DT5 or a WF6.

Even though the first 30 feet of a DT5 and a WF5 would have the same grain weight, once you get out of the head in your casting on a WF and into the running line you’ll have a lighter line in the air. Whereas with a DT, there is no running line, just a very long belly and eventually a rear taper.

We have been moving away from dual line weight designations on our rods mostly due to the shift toward WF fly lines. We have not done this completely since some markets internationally are still strong with DT fly lines.

When practical, we would always suggest casting several line weights to make sure the rod is tuned correctly to the caster.

Hope this helps,

Russ Darr
Marketing Manager
Cortland Line Company

[This message has been edited by Cortland (edited 21 February 2005).]

16

Excellent Russ, thanks so much!

LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

17

Buddy-
Your statement that “You can ‘slow’ the action of a rod by shortening it (from either end), and ‘speed up’ a rod action by lengthening it at the butt section” raises a question in my mind. If “action” refers to “the ‘pattern’ or ‘characteristics’ of that flex” wouldn’t shortening a rod from the tip end speed up the action?

Picture this…you have 9’ rod that is designed to flex mostly from the half way point(4.5’) to the tip. Now cut 2’ off of the tip and your rod still is designed to flex from 4.5’ to the tip, but instead of that being the upper 50% of the rod it is now the upper 35%. Add to that the loss of leverage(less rod above) on the new “flex zone” and then also the reduced weight that the flexes the rod and has to be sped up on the unloading and you will have a faster action.

Is my reasoning sound or am I missing something?

Charlie

18

The designation is usually double taper/weight forward. It doesn’t mean the rod is bad. If it did you shouldn’t buy Sage rods because most of the ones I’ve seen actually cast a heavier line weight better than the one they recommend. Take the rod out and try it with different line weights to be sure. Some (though very few) actually put the right line weight on the rod.

19

Charlie,

Here’s what you missed. To compare apples to apples here, we have to get the rod to flex the ‘same’. Pick it, but it needs to be the same, however you want to measure it. Mostly, it would be when the ‘angle’ of the tip of the blank to the butt of the rod is the ‘same’ for each blank (30, 45, 60, 90 degrees, doesn’t matter, as long as you measure it to the same point on EACH blank). THEN, you examine how much of the rod is flexed as a percentage of the whole length.

In your example, say that the 9’ rod flexes to 90 degrees (or whichever) in the top 1/2 of the blank. If you cut 2’ from the ‘tip’ end, the rod is now 7’ long. When you begin to ‘flex’ it, the portion that flexes the easiest (the thinner and lighter tip section ) has been removed. It will take more ‘weight’ to flex the remaining portion, but the ‘curve’, or ‘bend’ will be ‘wider’ or have a larger radius than the thinner portion you removed. To reach the corresponding 90 degree angle, it will take MORE than the 4 1/2 feet required by the 9’ rod. AND, since the rod is now only 7’ long, the rod becomes not just slower, but likely extremely slow.

Remember that action refers to the pattern of how a rod flexes under load.

The ‘Weight’ of the rod refers to how much energy is required to flex the rod.

In your example, you are not making the rod ‘faster’, you are making it ‘heavier’ or ‘stiffer’ (requires more ‘weight’ to properly load for a fly rod, or will cast more effiently with more wieght for a conventional rod).

If you aren’t getting my explanation, take a trip to the board at [url=http://www.rodbuilding.org.:1eb02]www.rodbuilding.org.[/url:1eb02] There are experts there that can explain it far better than I can.

Good Luck!

Buddy

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[This message has been edited by Buddy Sanders (edited 21 February 2005).]

20

Thanks for the explanation Buddy, but my understanding of action(which may be the problem) is that “action” refers to the flex pattern and speed of straightening after it has been under a given load. A slower action flexes closer to the grip and a faster one flexes closer to the tip for a given weight.

Let’s continue with the previous example. The 9’ rod takes “X” grams(or pennies or whatever you are using) to deflect the tip a given percentage of the overall length of the rod - say 20% for example. That’s 21.6 inches for a 9’ rod. Now attach that X weight to the the 7’ rod and it will deflect it considerably less(especially if you are using a progressive taper blank) than 16.8"(20% of 7’), hence a faster action.

Requiring more weight to deflect the rod the same % only increases what the ideal line weight would be. For example, casting a 2weight line on a nine weight rod - it will seem like a very fast action rod as only the very tip will deflect upon loading the line during cast. And the opposite is true as well - which would seem to be why many people overline their rods.

Yes, a rod’s “flex pattern” is built into it - a product of modulus, taper, amount of resin, and ferrule placement. But the “action,” if “action” is where the rod flexes and how quickly it unloads, changes when varying the load placed on it. More weight will flex a rod further down and will take more time for the rod to unload(return from loaded position to straight).

However I have a feeling that we’re splitting hairs here… Maybe you can send me the email you sent Bill.

Charlie

[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 22 February 2005).]

[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 22 February 2005).]