As far as being a casting expert I’m at the bottom of the food chain so I have a question. My rods are labelled for specific line weights with some suggested optimum casting distances. To me, this implies that a rod is really matched to a total weight of line beyond the rod tip. Does this mean that a rod rated for a # 7 line will successfully cast a #4 line a much greater distance ? Maybe I’m missing something.
I believe the line rating on the rod means the rod should load properly with 30’ of that weight line out the tip.
Now…a 7 wt rod does not know if it has 30’ of 7 wt out the tip or 50’ of 4 wt.
The problem comes when you try to load a 7 wt. rod with only 30’ of 4 wt.
A well designed rod will cast its “advertised” line weight at all distances.
Ray, …
Rods are “designed” to load (thus cast) certain weights of line.
See: [url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/rodbuilding/tips/rt19.html:2ddc2]Line and Lure Weight Ratings By Tom Kirkman[/url:2ddc2]
One doesn’t cast a fly, … we cast the line and the leader, tippet, then fly just “follow” along. To cast a line, … most mortals use a rod. To cast efficiently, we load (bend) the rod with the weight of the line, then send the line on it’s way by “unloading” the rod forward.
If your line is not reasonanly balanced towards to rod’s “characteristics”, it will either NOT load, or load too much.
imho, … I can load almost any rod with pretty well ANY line… it just take ALOT of work.
Seeing as I’m NOT at work, … I want this to go as EASILY as possible. To do so, … I usually load reels with the line the rod is “rated” for. Makes life much more enjoyable.
I’ll often mix 'n match rod/reel/line combos to see which one works best.
Have fun.
[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 03 December 2005).]
[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 03 December 2005).]
Hi Buzz, I’ve been known to be a bit slow at times but doesn’t your last sentence conrtadict your first sentence ???
Somewhat I suppose but a “good” rod will cast its line wt well both short and long. Most rods will throw any weight line provided you have enough weight out the tip. For example if you put enough 3 wt line out the tip of a 5 wt rod (lets say for the sake of arguement 50’ of 3 wt line weighed the same as 30’ of 5 wt) the rod only reacts to the weight of the line.
Now a five weight rod should cast its line wt through the distances. There are rods that “cave in” with 60’ of their line wt out the tip, others do not. There are rods that will load with just the leader, others do not. People buy rods for different reasons. Some could give a hoot less whether a rod can cast 60’ or not others wouldn’t have it any other way.
IMO the line weight marked on a rod is just a starting point to properly line the rod…
To answer your original question Yes
Just to try to help the big picture a rod designed to bend with a ten pound weight is not going to bend with a 1 pound weight. A rod designed for a 7wt line is not going to do well at all with a much lighter 4wt line. It is just a plain mis-match period. Having said that much…I have heard of overlining a rod by one weight. Soooooo does that apply to all rods or do you experiement and find the best line for the rod? For example will a 7wt line load my 6wt (9’mid flex) rod better and be easier to fish with? Or just better in windy conditions? Or is it not that simple…perhaps for me and my body yes and for someone else with the same rod maybe no? Buzz, maybe I am missing something also. Your last statement says…icw his original question (which I take to be will a 7wt rod cast even better (successfully) and farther with a 4wt line?) your answer is yes. I disagree but am certainly no expert. I have a 4wt line on order and till I receive it I cannot try it. But I do not think a 7wt rod will cast a 4wt line well at all. I rectum I am missing something here also. good topic
I am now going to go to Tom’s article. I now realize I should have read it before making this post.
Gem
Fly line numbers are based on the weight of the first 30 feet of fly line measured in grains.
These line weights are designed to correspond with the flex of a particular rod.
A 2 weight rod requires much less weight in the first 30 feet of flyline to acheive optimal loading (bending) of the rod compared to say for example a 7 wt, which would require more line weight. This applies to all rods.
Generally speaking most rods can handle one additional line weight. I know many anglers who employ this technique especially on faster action rods. The theory being that the slight additional weight of the heavier flyline helps the rod load easier thus making easier to cast the rod with less line out. This is really apparent on shorter casts.
Overloading a rod by going up more then 1 rod weight could cause undue stress on the rod and possibly cause it to break. I personelly would not use any rod with a line higher then one line weight.
So to answer your question, a 7 wt rod will not successfully cast a 4 wt line.
I’ve been fly casting for over 50 years but lack a lot of finesse but accept a lot of what you guys say but I think a lot is being oversimplified by the rod makers especially with the advent of the multitude of new differently contoured lines. Maybe they should clearly say that the nominal weight rating applies to just one specific distance and for consistant longer casts a lighter line may be preferred.
I read this thread and I have to question why people are always trying to use a product in ways other than designed? Usually manufacturers design a product for a specific purpose ? some manufacturers are more successful than others at accomplishing this.
If people would use the product ?As Designed? instead of trying to ?Mickey Mouse? some other use - the product would work better. Rod manufacturers are no different ? the rods are designed for a specific line weight to accomplish a specific task for the caster/fisherman.
Fly Rods follow the same set of rules ? Rods are designed to cast a specific line weight for a specific fishing scenario. The manufacturers who accomplish this sell more rods. When a manufacturer does not accomplish this fishermen find themselves Mickey Mousing around trying to make a poor rod work by changing line sizes. Word soon gets around that no one is satisfied with the purchase of that brand ? subsequently no one purchases that brand any longer.
There are those Fly Fishermen who prefer to under-line or over-line a rod. In my honest opinion they are just hurting themselves by purchasing a rod outside of its design. Most manufacturers now build several models the same line weight with different actions (slow, fast, etc.). My recommendation is to do the shopping and purchase the rod designed for the task at hand with the action preferred rather than attempting to acquire a specific action by attempting to use a rod outside of its design.
That?s just my two cents.
Let No One Walk Alone
><))))‘>------<’((((><
Bill
Can you cast a 4 wt line with a 7 wt rod? Shure you can. In fact you can cast that 4 wt line with a broomstick. I’m not kidding – it can be done. It doesn’t work well and is not a lot of fun, but it can be done.
To make a rod really sing, you need enough load to “load the rod”. The 4 wt will not have enough weight to load the 7 weight rod untill you have a LOT of line out. Also , the weight that the line imposes on the rod always varies at different portions of the casting stroke. There will be portions of the stroke where you want the rod to start bending under load, but the resistence from the line isn’t there yet. There will also be portions of the stroke where the rod will tend to straighten because it has overcome the decreasing line force ( at that portion of the stroke)and the timing of that return is just not right. I believe that the rod will load late and unload early.
It is not unreasonable to find that for any given fisherman/casting style, and/ or fishing situation ( 30 foot casts vs. 60 foot casts, size 20 tricos vs. size 4 salmon flies) you may prefer a line one weight heavier or lighter than the advertised weight. From 7 wt to 4 wt - I’m not shure you would like it
AgMD
Risking frost bite I just strung up a 7 wt rod with a 4 wt DT line and took it to the yard.
It took guite a bit of muscle to feed line out, the line felt like it had little inertia till I got 30-40’out. Once I had about 40’ out of the tip the rod started to load somewhat throwing huge loops with lots of tip bounce. As the amount of line lengthened the loops got smaller, the rod calmed down and started loading quite well. I cast it the length of my house (50’), over the neighbors driveway and into her flower bed (est 70’).
As I predicted when the rod had enough weight to load (not knowing what weight line it was casting) it did very well.
BTW…I do not recommend fishing this outfit
Started this at another thread last night, and then, being EYEtalian, we pushed the wrong button and lost it. Oh well, here goes.
A line is measured for the first 30’…I think. A rod is designed to carry 40’-45’ of line. Soooo…the rod should require more weight to “properly” load than is in the “measured” portion of line stamped on the rod.
This, I think, is the reason we “up-line” by two weights when useing shooting heads. There is no substantial line behind the head. This may be the reason, also, that up-lining or down-lining by one wt is useful to change length of line extended to load a rod, for whatever reason.
Many reasons and many ways to fool around with your gear and obtain quite satisfactory results.
…lee s.
I didn’t read all of the responses but the answer to this question “Does this mean that a rod rated for a # 7 line will successfully cast a #4 line a much greater distance ?” is no. If you had some kind of line that was absent of tapers designed to work on the 4 weight, you would have some chance of casting it farther than a 7 weight. Go out and try it for yourself, that’s how I learned that it won’t work.
PanFisher, there are situations in which “Mickey Mouse” actions might be justifed. I have a 3 weight rod that I like quite a bit, a Redington Wayfarer 5-piece. I bought an extra reel and loaded it with a WF-5-F line. I like the rod. There are times when I want to cast a small popping bug or a big fly and the 3-wt line doesn’t co-operate too well. I also use this rod on small streams and casts of no more than 15-20 feet are the rule. In these cases, using a heavier line helps to load the rod and allow for less messy casting. I don’t think that laying out 6-7 yards of 5-wt line is going to break the rod.
I suppose that the point of all of this os to say that if one is only to use a rod “as designed”, then those of us who like to fish small streams are out of luck. At least until the manufacturers re-label some rods to use with short lines. In effect, that’s all that we are doing.
Either way, I wish us all well, on the streams and off.
Ed
For example,I built a 2-piece 6 footer (my favorite rod of choice)and the recommended line 5/6 works the best; though I ahve tries a 4wt line and its too feathery in the presentation. On the other hand, using the same rod I have tried a 7wt line and its like trying to throw a ship chain with the back cast feeling like its got an anvil on it. A 4wt line on a recommended 7wt rod would in my experience take the term balance to a new dimension, and further your time afield into spooking rather than suprizing what lies beneath. May all your casts produce a fruitful release.
J Castwell – Awsom! I have never seen a fighting butt quite like that before.
An excellent object lesson to all of us who might think the answer to fishing success is the newest modulus of graphite or a vintage bamboo rod with a price tag higher than than the car I’m driving. ( which really isn’t all that high a price tag at that). The key to fishing success is the way you use the tools you have. “Better” equipment, whatever that is, just makes it easier, more enjoyable, or just more pleasing by whatever criteria tickels our fancy.
I have many times thought about cutting a green mountain ash sapling, and running a beatup old flyline through some string guides and fish it just to prove myself it can be done. Hmm , maybe I’ll go look for some ash this afternoon.
AgMD
JC, that was just plain fun. Thanks for posting the link.
One cannot successfully match a line to a rod or a rod to a line unless you know four things: 1. The power or strength of your rod. 2. The weight of the line. 3. The distance you wish to cast. 4. The “feel” YOU want your casting “outfit” to have.
Thanks to JC and LF, you can learn what you need to know in order to intelligently approach the subject of lines,rods and feel. Simply go to the left side of this page and punch in – FEATURES, Rod Building, Common Cents System.
On the other hand, if you are too lazy read all that information, I can tell you that you cannot begin to predict the “right” line for your 5-Wt rod until you first know how strong your rod is. However, you can take the alternative approach, trial and error, if you have the time and money to spare. Good luck.