Related to 'Trimming Hackle' thread

All about flies Fly Tying
1

I stand by the concept that, altering a typical Catskill ‘style’ dry fly, makes it a Catskill style fly no more. As an example, if you take a Light Hendrickson dry fly, trim top and bottom hackle flush, you now have what Al Caucci developed as a spinner. If you decide to tie a light Hendrickson with an abundance of hackle, you have not tied a Catskill ‘style’ even though it may be considered a Catskill ‘pattern’. If you significantly* alter a specific design, you’ve changed the design and hence what it’s called**.

None of this has anything to do with effectiveness of the fly. You may believe it is worse than, the same as, or better than the original.

  • something that is easily observed upon a quick viewing.
    ** entirely up to you: perhaps variation, variant, imitation or any other word you choose.

Allan

2

Allen I agree with you. People think they are tying one style of pattern when in fact they have changed it to something they made up or they are tying in a totaly different style.

You can’t cut flies up and expect people that know a thing or two about flies to say they are in the Catskill style . They are in fact something that you are making up or in a totaly different style.

I am not saying that people can’t tie flies the way they want to. All I am saying is that there are some rules that have to be considered when tying some types of flies. Ron

3

Allan,

Color me confused still, but where was written down what constitutes a Catskill style dry fly, and in which manner does it differ from the hackled&winged dries which came before.

I am not asking after a generic description, but am looking for the literature reference. In my own research I have not found where and when the term “Catskill dry fly” or “Catskill style dry fly” was first used. Can you help?

Thanks,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

4

Hans,

I really don’t know when that actual phrase, “Catskill Dry Fly” was first used. I, as do many other fly tyers, accept the general definition of that style as provided by Harry Darbee in his book and in articles he wrote. It is not a scientific definition and open to individual nuances. However, it is the generally accepted definition. But you know all that so I’m not providing you with anything new.

Cheers.

Allan

5

Allan,

The search goes on then

Here is my ‘problem’ with the use of “traditional Catskill style dry fly”: I cannot really determine the tell-tale difference between conventional and very traditional hackled and winged dry flies which were tied and used in England, which pre-date the days of Theodore Gordon.

The new development, the addition if you will, is the use of lemon woodduck rolled wings, but simply the addition of a fresh material does not generally define a new style of tying. Plus, many “Catskill” patterns do not deplot lemon woodduck.

Onwards we journey…

Cheers,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

6

Ok I am really confused now but that takes no effort at all.I just tye them close to the picture with materials close to the recipee. If it catches fish great if it doesn’t ,OHHHH WELLL. Isn’t it more in matching the hatch if you will more than catagories and definitions? No sarcasm intended just my poor ignorance involved or have I just over simplified the situation.

7

What of A.K Style dries in the catskill theme…?..lol…Jus kiddin…but they are all I tend to tye and carry these days…Don’t even know if A.K. knows of them…lol…As I plied his techniues, To the cats styles…OK…I’m done pull’in Allan’s chain…But they are good flies…and have EARNED their spot in my box…

“I’ve often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before” A.K.Best

“Wish ya great fishing”

Bill

8

Hans,
I wrote a lengthly response and lost it in cyberspace(damn).

Suffice to say, the flies Gordon tied were significantly different than the English flies that were available. Sparser, stiff hackle required, the wings you mention (as if that wasn’t enough), larger flies, different proportions for balance on the more turbulant waters of the Catskills.

“The new development, the addition if you will, is the use of lemon woodduck rolled wings, but simply the addition of a fresh material does not generally define a new style of tying.”
>In this case it did. We’re not talking about substituting beaver or muskrat for rabbit or wool; or dyed mallard for woodduck. We’re talking about an additional material, a new hackle quality requirement, a different sillouette and new dimensions/proportions.

“Plus, many “Catskill” patterns do not deplot(deploy?) lemon woodduck.”
>That’s true. Again, I’m talking about ‘style’ not Catskill ‘patterns’. Many Catskill patterns (totally different definition) are not tied in the Catskill style. Here are but a few: Gordon’s Bumblepuppy, Flick’s variants, LaBranche’s Queen of the Water, Darbee’s 2 feather fly and RFM, Atherton’s nymphs, Dette’s Delaware Adams and Isonychia nymph, Hewitt’s skater and bivisible, Solomon’s caddises, Len Wright’s caddises, and on and on.

Hans, you and I know that if I dropped 10 dry flies on the desk and told you 5 were tied by British tiers for British trout water and 5 were tied in the Catskill style for Catskill waters, you’d be able to identify the 2 styles.

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 28 August 2005).]

9

Hans,

This question was pretty well defined as well as it could be in a 130 post thread about two years ago. And back then, a great effort was put into finding the phrase Catskill Style dry fly and when it was first used. The phrase was found a good number of times, by Allan and by me and a few others who participated in that thread. I think Ron Mt was a contributer. Since we all have a good number of books (I’ve got well over 200) I don’t remember exactly which ones coined the phrase and on what date, but I’ll be darned if I’m gonna do another extended search because you didn’t pay attention the first time (lol). I know Schwiebert used it early in his career as a writer, and quite a few others did too.

The early tyers, like Gordon, didn’t know that what they were tying in the early part of the 20th century were decades later going to be called “Catskill Style” but I assure you by the mid to late 50’s those flies were called just that.

If I come across the phrase in the perusing of my books I will give you the information you seek in dribs and drabs.

Later, RW

“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[This message has been edited by Royal Wulff (edited 28 August 2005).]

10

Allan,

Hans, you and I know that if I dropped 10 dry flies on the desk and told you 5 were tied by British tiers for British trout water and 5 were tied in the Catskill style for Catskill waters, you’d be able to identify the 2 styles.

Tiers as far back as the first bit of fluff lashed onto a hook have been adapting their critters to the conditions on their local waters, the naturals they try to mimic and the behavior on the water they are after.

I would not expect any other than that fishermen on the chalkstreams of southern England developed their flies to look and behave different, and use the materials they had at their disposal. The same applies to folks fishing the streams in the Catskills region.

At a certain moment in history this (to me) elusive term of “traditional Catskill style” dry fly has come into being, and it has taken on a life of its own. Somebody must have started the term, and others have taken it on board. I am after some information, or a direction to look, as to the first documented reference in literature.

When and by which author appears to be either shrouded in mystery, or is such a well guarded secret that it requires the right handshake to be let inside.

I clearly lack the handshake…

Cheers,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

11

RW,

I don’t remember exactly which ones coined the phrase and on what date, but I’ll be darned if I’m gonna do another extended search because you didn’t pay attention the first time (lol)

You mean to tell me the reference was present in that two year old thread? I was there, I took part, I have the t-shirt, and no I do not think it was provided in that, or any other thread on the subject here on FAOL since.

I will eat my words if you can prove me wrong . Now, surely that would be sufficient incentive, no?

If I come across the phrase in the perusing of my books I will give you the information you seek in dribs and drabs.

That would be good, and appreciated

Cheers,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places === [url=http://www.danica.com/flytier:76035]http://www.danica.com/flytier[/url:76035]

[This message has been edited by Hans Weilenmann (edited 28 August 2005).]

12

Hans, RW again,

If you would like to make a small wager (or any amount you are willing to lose) that I can prove you wrong I’m up for it, or “down for it”, as the more recent street talk goes. How about this? I’ll post the references if you send me my chipmunk flies ( for which I’ve been patiently waiting these three long years). I’ll do it when I come back from dinner this evening. Gonna make you sweat for a couple hours.

Later, RW

“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

13

chuckle

Touche on the chipmunk flies. I still do owe you those. Thanks for the reminder.

Wager… well, I could offer you a half dozen Catskill style wets. I know you’d have good use for them, right?

Do we have a deal?
Hans
chuckling
running
ducking

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

14

Hans,

I know that RW, myself and others found specific uses of that phrase in some books or articles. WDid we find the first use of the phrase? I don’t know. No one proclaimed that Mr. ‘X’ was the first user of the title. Each of us just found the earliest reference to that phrase that we could and identified who used it.

Similarly like RW, I am not about to re-research something as valueless as that piece of information. The fact is that someone used it at some time to describe a style of fly tying that, at the time, was generally associated with a specific area and group of tyers. It appears that the phrase became a popular way of describing the style and, at least for me, helps me to visualize a verbal or written description.

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 28 August 2005).]

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 28 August 2005).]

15

Allan,

The earliest you found would be a good start. If you cannot recall the exact reference, and I am not suggesting you should re-research solely on my account, a decade would be a good start for me. Are we talking fifties? Thirties? Earlier?

Thanks,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

16

Hans,

Any decade I’d mention would be, at best, a poor guess. I really don’t recall nor do I recall the source although I’m sure it was an old book. Sorry but that’s the best I can do.

Allan

17

Thanks Allan,

You’re off the hook and the mystery remains…

My eggs are in RW’s basket now.

Cheers,
Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

18

Hans, RW again

In the 20’s and 30’s they were still developing the style so writers then didn’t have the presence, for want of a better word, to start calling what they were tying the Catskill Style. It fell to later generations to be able to visualize the whole era of “the Golden Age”, as they called it in this country, and the history that led up to it. The phrase “Catskill Style” and “Catskill School” was used often by writers in the generations that followed.

I have the goods on ya Hans but right now I am more concerned with the catastrophe that is about to befall the good people of New Orleans, and pray for their well being.

Will get on with this later with actual references. Get those wet flies ready to mail.

Later, RW

“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[This message has been edited by Royal Wulff (edited 28 August 2005).]

19

RW,

Amen on New Orleans…

Hans W

=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

20

Hans, RW again,

Here is what you requested for references to the Catskill School (or style) of Fly tying.

On page 170 of the epic, 1745 page two volume edition of “Trout” by Ernest Schwiebert, published in 1977 by E. H. Dutton. Here Schwiebert is referring to Preston Jennings, author of “A Book of Trout Flies”.

quote:…“His fly patterns were elegantly tied in the “style” of the Catskill School”.

School in this sense is meant as Webster defines it in the eighth definition of the word…“A group of people held together by the same teachings, beliefs, opinions, methods, etc…followers or disciples of a particular teacher, leader or creed”. In this case Theodore Gordon.

Not only do we have the word “style” in the phrase but Catskill School, which basically means the same thing.

Also in Schwiebert’s book “Rememberances of Rivers Past”, published in 1972 by MacMillan, in the chapter “Song of the Catskills” page 47…“Neversink fishing has been decimated since completion of the reservervoir, but its tradition remains as rich as any river in the Catskills. It’s fame is secure as the home river of Theodore Gordon, the bachelor fly-fishing genius who evolved the “Catskill style” of fly dressing and adapted British dry fly theory to American waters”.
I think that sentence clinches it. But there’s more.

Ceacil Heacox in his book “The Complete Brown Trout” by Winchester Press, published in 1974 refers to the “Catskill School of Fly Tiers” on numerous occasions.

Without digging any farther I also believe Joe Brooks in one of his books referred to Catskill School or style of fly tying. There are more references, but I’m not going to press on any farther.

I’d like my wet flies in size 10 or 12 if you would be so kind sir. Come on the chat tonight and I’ll give you my address.

Later,
Your research guru, RW

“We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours.” -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[This message has been edited by Royal Wulff (edited 29 August 2005).]