Popper Sounds

Fishing Warm water Forum
1

A guy made the comment on another more local BB, he thought a cork bodied popper made a “better” sound than a foam bodied popper. Honestly, I have had the same thought myself. But after pondering a bit and thinking about sound transmission, vibrations etc and seeing a video shot from beneath a popper in a bathtub I came to the conclusion the fish don’t hear the sound, they see the wave action around the popper and may feel the vibration in the water but sound isn’t really something that affects fish very much.

What are your thoughts on this?

2

There should be very little, if any, difference at all, as fish do not hear as we do. What they “hear” are the ‘pressure waves’ created by the movement of the bug, and it’s ‘appendages’, be it tail, rubber legs, etc. These changes are detected by the lateral line, which is a series of small holes in each successive scale whose openings are connected by a minute canal that lead to a larger canal that goes to their “ears”. These “ears” consist of three capsules at the base of the brain on each side. It is here that these minute pressure changes are transmitted to the brain.

The only differences to the fish would be any differences in the minute pressure waves generated by the ‘pop’ that might be associated with the nature of the material. In my professional (fisheries biology) considered opinion, the question is moot.

3

They do float differently, so there is every reason to believe they sound differently when popped. Aged Sage is correct in saying that what we hear doesn’t matter. If you get more hits with one than the other, that one sounds better to the fish. I prefer hairbugs, since they definitely sound different. I compare it to (cork or plastic) a 2x4 smacking the water or (hiarbugs) swishing a twiggy branch into the water. I get more action with the swish.

4

Another thought is that most foam poppers I have seen/used/built do not have a really ‘clean’ edge on the face, so the pop/sound wave may not be as ‘clean’ either.

I would agree with Aged Sage though, the fish would have the final say on what they want, and that could change from day to day.

(Personally, I like sliders more than poppers. :-? )

5

As far as foam poppers goes, it depends upon the foam utilized. Denser foams, like that used in flip flops or those sold by Rainys or Edgewater, will sit much lower in the water and therefore have similar qualities of sound as balsa or other wood based poppers than do the lighter “craft foam” type poppers.

It also depends on the how heavy a hook ya’ use. A small foam popper made with a 2X or 3x heavy nymph hook will sit much lower in the water than a similar bodied foam popper that is made with a dry fly hook. Such a popper will most likely have better hooking qualities and make more/louder noise when “popped”.

Or put another way, that’s why we tie our own flies in order to get the action/sounds that we each prefer…

However with all that said, I do agree with Don, as the best “popper” fly fisherman with whom I ever fished used sliders almost exclusively. :cool:

Bowfin47

6

The ‘sound’ a popper makes is extremely important to the fisherman.

We can’t ‘hear’ the vibrations caused by our creations like the fish can. We can only ‘hear’ the sound that it makes on the water. The difference in sound that we can actually ‘hear’ gives us a clue as to what the fish ‘feels/hears’ with it’s lateral line and it’s ‘ears’ (separate things in bass). If it ‘sounds’ different to us, then the sounds/vibrations it puts off in the water are also different.

Some misconceptions seem to be universal about foam poppers. They are significantly heavier than balsa, even though most tyers seem to think they are lighter. Balsa makes the lightest baits I’ve found, but’s that not to say they are superior. Cork varies wildly as to it’s weight. Especially now that the ‘good’ cork we used to be able to get has all but disapeared. If you take the time to weigh a group of cork bodies, you can find as much as a 30 percent difference between them.

The type of paint/finish you use, and the number of coats, can add significant weight to a popper body. Cork often needs lots of paint coats to smooth it out, so that adds to their weight.

The way a popper ‘pops’ is based more on the shape of the front of the head than on the material used. You can make a bait more agressive (louder, move more water), by how you shape the head. A deeper cupping, different curves to the profile, and how you tail the bait can all change the ‘sound’ it makes.

You need to understand how you will be working the bait and tailor the shape to your fishing style. Do you work the bug by pulling on the line? Or do you work it with the rod tip? Do you want it to spit water, or make loud pop, glug, or ‘swoosh’? You can get any type of popper body material, even deer hair, to do anything you want it to if you shape it and work it correctly.

I like foam because it’s fast and easy to turn out effective bodies in a short time. I like to spin/stack deer hair because it’s an art form and the flies are fun to make and fish. Balsa is a neat material and I enjoy making poppers from it. (I’ve given up on cork because the good stuff costs too much and it’s a pain to work with.) All of the materials we make poppers from catch fish.

But as far as the sound of a popper is concerend, if it doesn’t sound ‘right’ to you, throw it away and use one that sounds like you want it to. Fishing time is too precious to watse on something you don’t have confidence in.

Confidence is the most effective tool you have.

Buddy

7

I find that most of the fish hit the popper after it has been sitting for a while.
So I am not sure that sound makes that much difference.

Rick

8

Buddy…

Can you provide solid references to the statement that if a bug makes a different sound to us, the sounds/ vibrations it puts off are also different? It must be remembered that water and air are two entirely different media, and they have very different capacities to transmit /perpetuate sound (pressure) waves.

The lateral line and the ‘ears’ of a fish, be it bass or a guppy, are two of the many integral parts of a fish’s ‘hearing’ system, and are mutually dependent upon one another for proper function and ‘hearing’, much like our own external ear flap and auditory canal. It is the “rocks” in the head of both man nad fish that convert these pressure waves to electrical impulses that enable both to ‘hear’.

9

Ditto to what Buddy said… I just wanted to limit my treatise… HA!

In the words of Big Dale, “Y’all have fun with this stuff!”

10

Sage,

I may be making this more complicated than it deserves.

What I meant, put simply, is that if two different poppers ‘sound’ different to your ear, then the vibrations they put into the water where it can be percieved by the fish will also be different.

We have to remember that what causes the sounds we can hear with our ears are caused by the bait interacting with the water. While we can’t percieve all the vibrations and and such that the fish can, we can be sure that if it sounds different to us, the vibrations it puts out into the water are also different, yes?

Buddy

11

Yes…

12

Buddy…

Nothing complicated at all. I clearly understood what you said the first time, hence my question. My question is (was)can you prove the statement that different sounds in air, as perceived by man, will also sound different (perceived as different) to a fish? I am looking for scientific evidence for such a statement. Just the innate curiosity of a retired fisheries biologist.

Thanks,
Frank

13

Frank,

Nothing scientific. I have zero clue as to how a fish percieves anything.

Buddy

14

plop-plop fizz-fizz
oh wait wrong sound unless the bass have a hangover.
could be cork has a more suttle wave length in the water…

15

The poppers I made from some large size audio earplugs make a very satisfying PLONK! What the fish sense is beyond me, but it attracts thier attention, and sometime they will bite it. Maybe they have a hangover and it ticks them off.

16

Buddy…

The question now becomes; if you cannot support your claim, why make it in the first place? To paraphrase Lefty Kreh, there is already more BS in the fly fishing lore than BS in all the Kansas feed lots! Why add more? Who benefits from it?

Frank

17

Frank,

I am not aware of anyone who has done any scientific studies on the differences in popper material sounds, but logic would imply that if we hear them differently, the fish would too, if their ‘hearing’ is anything like ours. In either case, the waves thru the medium (air or water) are different in length as can be judged by the sound we hear. The difference is probably not equal, due to the density differences, however, so the difference in ‘sound’ is probably not as drastic.

The only ones who could really tell us for sure are the fish, and last I checked, they ain’t talking.

What’s the point of even having a bulletin board if not for us, who are really just making educated guesses, to discuss what we have observed, what we feel we know, and what deductions we have made.

After all, 90% of the lures out there are more to cacth the fisherman than the fish anyway. :smiley:

(Oh, and 63.8% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :shock:)

18

drolfson … where’d you get that information??? Easily and obviously, at least 64.3% of statistics are made up on the spot, not the measly 63.8% you stated!

Back to the thread … I’ll repeat what’s been said many times. If the fish hit it, it makes the right sound. If they don’t, it doesn’t.

If you really want to know what the fish are hearing, dunk you head in the bathtub and have the Wife drag a lure through the water above you.

19

Don…

Your comment about the differences between progression of sound waves in air being different than in water, and how they are perceived, is the heart of my original question. Wave attenuation is much greater in water than in air. The question can then become; How do these differences affect the ‘receivers’ perception of them? There is no need to pursue this here. My primary purpose was to ascertain whether or not the profound claim had any ‘real’ data basis. Apparently not! (More data for Lefty!) Therefore, “Case Closed” in my books.

Regards,
Frank

20

Gentlemen, thank you for your insight and wisdom. The one effect of the popper sound I feel pretty sure of, is the popper that sounds best to the fisherman will catch the most fish. Because that’s the one he will use, the popper in the fly box does catch many fish.