Pond Management

Fishing Warm water Forum
1

I have a friend who has a new pond filling up. It will be about 2 acres with a maximum depth of 12 + feet. Right now only about an acre has filled with the rest being a shelf area that will mostly be 6 feet or less deep, if I understand correctly. He has made some structure, large stones, in the deeper water. We have been brainstorming about other things and plans are taking shape. He is going to put bluegill and LMB in the pond for sure. He is thinking seriously about smallies. He will have a well to keep the pond full.

We are now looking for info on stocking rates, water plants, etc… I sent him a copy of Rick Zieger’s C&R article. What other resources are available. Are there good books in print that could help us out. Note that Google is my friend, so I’m exploiting that resource. Any ideas would be welcome. Note that my friend is a fly fisherman.

Thanks,
Ed

2

Two places you can most likely get info from–The US Soil and Water Conservation Dept. or the Tenn. Cooperative Extension Dept. Most likely you can get an on-site inspection and first hand information from someone from either of these “groups” if you want to go that route. Check the blue pages in the phone book and you will find the phone numbers. The Cooperative Extension (County Agent–may be shown under “Extension Office”) under “State” and the Soil and Water under “US Gov”. Either one of them will have all the information you would need. Good luck on the future fishing.

3

Meadowlark, down near Houston, does some fine pond work and may be able to offer some advice from his experience in the area of pond building.
http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/ponds.htm

Best

Robin

4

I manage two association pond in a new housing addition of 200 homes,and all we use is street runoff to feed a area that once was a stream and wet lands. Twenty feet deep and each the same size as yours. Four years ago with DNR advise i stocked 2 thousand four inch bass and the same amount of hybred bluegills. Plus fat head minows for the bass. We now have two and three pound bass and thousand of little gills to feed the bass and many 12 inch bluegills. No cover–A few unwanted chritmas trees. We did provide three truck loads of sand for bedding areas . BILL

5

Thanks for the replies. I think that the pond owner has started lurking here. If not, I’ll have to have a little talk with him…

There is enough rock and gravel that bedding areas should be more than adequate. We have been talking about making some extra structure. We are waiting with bated breath to see if the pond stays cool enough, from the spring, to stock rainbows.

Many thanks,
Ed

6

Ed,

One of your first contacts should be the Region II office of TWRA there in Nashville. TWRA has a publication concerning pond management that is a good start. They also have a program whereby a fisheries biologist will give assistance (in the form of advice) for pond owners. Also, the afore-mentioned sources of the NRCS and the UT Ag Extension folks will yield some pertinent info.

In your description, you have not indicated the size of the inflow from the spring, so I can not make a definitive guesstimate on the success of rainbow trout stocking other than to say if the spring flow is not pretty substantial, water temps may not remian low enough in the summer to sustain rainbows. Browns can tolerate a tad warmer water temps, but even then, I am thinking summer water temps in middle Tennessee may be too high for their survival. A potential additional problem may be low dissolved oxygen levels from the spring flow. I have found that most of the “true” groundwater I have tested had low DO. I would advise checking the DO content on this incoming water; you will want a minimum of 5 ppm. I have known of some pond owners who built their ponds with a spring inflow who had to aerate their ponds to maintain sufficient DO.

Next, I played with stocking smallmouth bass in the ponds of TVA’s Land Between the Lakes in western KY and TN several years ago. (The US Forest Service has since taken over LBL.) I stocked smallmouth in combination with redear sunfish in some ponds; with fathead minnows and bluegills in other ponds. The smallmouth I stocked in all these ponds exhibited poor growth rates and almost non-existant reproduction.

Conversely, ponds stocked with largemouth bass (northern strain) and combinations of redear sunfish, bluegill, and fathead minnows resulted in good growth rates for the LMB and sunfish. The bass soon consumed essentially all of the fathead minnows. In my experience, if you stock minnows for a bass food source, you may have to conduct supplemental stockings of said minnows to ensure an adequate food supply. One thing you can do to increase spawning success of fathead minnows is to place mats of Spanish moss or loose straw bales in the shallowest part of the pond to provide the fatheads good spawning structure. (The Spanish moss is by far the best I have used!)

Therefore, based on my experiences playing with such things, I would recommend your friend stay with a largemouth bass/bluegill combination and, if he wishes to, throw redear sunfish into the mix as well. If desired, channel catfish can also be added to the mix, but they will need to be fed continuously through the growing season. The stocking rates I used were 500 young-of-year (YOY) bluegill per acre the first year, followed by 100 YOY largemouth bass per acre the second year. If I added redear to the mix, I would reduce the bluegill to 300 per acre and add 200 YOY redear per acre. If I desired channel catfish, I would add 50-100 fingerlings the second year. I haven’t kept up with current recommended stocking rates, thus, a contact with TWRA would be most helpful for the most recent recommendations.

A couple of other observations I have for you that may or may not be of interest are as follows: A) DO NOT stock crappie in the pond. Yes, I know some folks do so and have a decent crappie fishery in some situations. These are the exception rather than the rule. However, in my experiences, most of the time when crappie are stocked in small ponds, you end up with a very stunted population about 5-10 years down the road. If you do stock crappie, harvest them with a vengeance. They are highly prolific (again, in most situations) and will soon overpopulate most small ponds.
B) DO NOT stock pure Florida strain largemouth in ponds in Tennessee. Research I have seen shows the Floridas will not grow as well as the northern strain at our latitude. I have seen some data on Florida/northern crosses that show increased growth rates. However, the expense of these hybrids may not justify the end product. Additionally, there is some question about successive generations of bass that result from reproduction of these hybrids in terms of growth and survival.
C) Harvest the fish from a pond in a sensible manner. DO NOT overharvest your predators (bass) or stunting of the bluegill will result. DO NOT overharvest your bluegill or the bass will run shy of food. Check the “balance” of your pond via seine hauls to determine size structure and relative population of your bluegill and YOY bass. Dr. Swingle of Auburn University developed the Southern standards for pond balance many, many years ago. For the most part, those standards are still relevant. Again, the TWRA pond management book and/or the TWRA fisheries biologist can assist you with advice for this effort.

I hope these points help!

7

Thanks Gary. That was a super post. The pond owner is now an FAOL lurker. I know that he has been in contact with the TWRA and other state sources and well as Pondboss and SEpond.

The spring has decided to miss the dam, so he will be using a well and an electric pump. I suppose that flow will be from a 4" diamater pipe with as much flow as the pump, and his electric bill, can handle.

I also suggested 3-5 bales of barley straw per acre per year to help control pond scum. He will be feeding fish, as least at first. He will fertilze as needed. I think that we are going to try to make and emplace some more structure. Knowing that hay bales are good for fathead minnows is handy.

I think that crappie are not in the picture at all for him. I don’t know if he plans to put redears in or not. I suggested some areas of reed clumps in the shallow areas of standing water for structure as well as for insect production.

What do you think of green sunfish in ponds?

Thanks again for your assistance.

Ed

8

Ed,

As badly as crappie can stunt in a small pond, green sunfish are even worse! I’ve tried to re-balance ponds with stunted green sunfish by stocking more bass, to no avail. The greens were so prolific they completely annihilated the bass spawn two years in a row. I ended up eradicating the fish population of those ponds with rotenone and starting over with a bluegill/bass combination.

If the pond owner is going to use groundwater to maintain the water level of the pond, be certain to check the DO of this groundwater. If it is low (i.e., below 5 ppm) have him to rig up a spray system to aerate the well water as it plunges into the pond. This won’t be cheap, but may be necessary for fish survival and growth IF the groundwater is low in DO and he needs large amounts of water to maintain desired water levels.

While reed clumps or stands of cattails will provide cover and habitat for aquatic insects, this type of cover can become problematic IF allowed to infest too much of the shallow (littoral) zone of the pond. The problem comes in that too much vegetation can provide the YOY bluegill too much cover, allowing too many of them to escape predation by the bass. This can result in a stunted bluegill population. How much is too much vegetation? Again, I can ony speak in generalities, as each pond is different. Generally speaking, you don’t want more than 15-20% of the shoreline area covered in these plants. Again, annual checks of balance (#s and size ranges of bluegill vs. #s and sizes of YOY and juvenile bass) will guide the pond owner as to the survival of the YOY bluegill and give a clue as to whether or not there is too much cover for these fish.

One thing I will say here is that you certainly do not want submersed vegetaion such as hydrilla or Eurasian watermilfoil in a pond such as this! These plants can very quickly overpopulate and become a nightmare in a small pond.

As you mentioned, fertilizing a pond is usually desrirable as it will increase the food base, and thus the carrying capacity of the pond for fish. If possible, I would try to avoid using pelletized fertilizers as they have a tendency to fall to the bottom of the pond too quickly and the fertilizer can become bound up in the clay on the bottom of the pond.

Now, I usually recommend using a liquid fertilizer (yes, it is more expensive initially, but more nutrients are put in the warer column). Way back then, when I worked a lot on ponds, I had a special formulation made up (I believe it was 21-53-0) in a crystallized form that I mixed with water in a bucket to attain a slurry mix. This was then broadcast into our ponds with good results. I’m not certain that old formulation is still available though. That was before the liquid fertilizers came on the scene, so I’m showing my age here!

9

Thanks again, Gary. I think that the plan with rushes was to plant only a few clumps out in the pond itself, in the shallow area less than 6’ deep. This will basically provide a casting target, if you will. Thanks for the word on green sunfish. I was told, by no expert, that because of their larger mouths, that they actually help to control stunting. I’ll discard that idea. It sounded good, but false cognates are a dime a dozen and irony is the bane of fools.

The pond owner might let the fish feed also function as the fertilizer. I know that he and I talked about some sort of a lotus or something in the “lily pad” line. Once again, price, if nothing else, will keep us from getting silly with planting rates. I still remember the NE bay on Carroll Lake, back near the inlet creek. There were 4 of us, students back then, that rented a rowboat and rowed over there and then got out in the shin-deep and knee-deep water to cast flies and poppers among the lily pads. It was one of those days that was memorable for the fun that we had, the mistakes that we made, and how wet we got. But I am drifting from the point.

What do you think of cheap, dry cat food for feeding the fish &/or fertilizing the pond? Will it use up too much DO? Speaking of DO, I think that the owner is pumping water from far enough away that he might have it cascade over some limstone before it hits his pond. Only time and testing will tell if that gives it enough DO.

I really do appreciate your assistance.

Ed

10

Ed,

I believe the pond owner would be wise to reconsider using excess fish food as fertilizer. First, it would not contain the best mix of nutients needed to make the pond “bloom” as one would desire. Secondly, the use of fish food as a fertilizer will be MUCH more expensive than a good commercially produced pond fertilizer, including liquid fertilizers. Finally, utilizing animal food as fertilizer can result in blooms of blue-green algae, which can have toxic effects on the fish.

Next, I can NOT recommend cheap cat food, dog food, etc. as a replacement for commercially produced fish food. (No, I am not working for a fish food company, nor do I receive any kickback from them.) As with all food products produced for livestock, different formulations are required for the best growth and health of different animals. Feeding of the stocked fish will result in increased growth rates and increased carrying capacity of the pond. However, feeding is NOT absolutely necessary if the usual combination of bass/bluegill and/or redear sunfish is stocked as recommended. If one stocks channel catfish, supplemental feeding is required to get them to grow well.

I usually recommend a floating fish food, even though it is slightly more expensive than sinking food, as the pond owner can observe the fish feeding and ensure the fish clean up the majority of the food in 15 minutes or so. This ensures that overfeeding doesn’t occur, thus prevents wasting of food. Additionally, it is pleasurable watching fish feed on the surface!

Back to the discussion about plants in the pond, I recommend diligent watchfulness if it is decided to plant rushes, lily pads, lotus, or any other emergent vegetation in ponds. Many of these plants will expand their populations beyond the planting site. Again, too many plants will result in problems. If they are planted, the pond owner needs to be prepared to work to control plant populations to the areas where they are desired. This may entail chemical control as well as mechanical control, if plant populations get out of hand.

If you haven’t visited Carroll Lake recently, you may be in for a surprise how the lotus expanded. As a matter of fact, TWRA had to go in and chemically control the lotus several years back as the plants had taken over about half of the lake surface acreage. As a result, the fish population stunted severely, forcing its renovation. The fishery has since rebounded with the subsequent fish restocking and annual plant management program.

Again, this points out the need to maintain a vigil on one’s pond to ensure things do not get out of whack. While it is not unheard of that a pond can remain unmanaged and still remain “healthy” (as far as the fishery and plant communities are concerned), it is the exception rather than the rule that this occurs, especially here in this part of the country.

11

A good resource for plants would be a local native plants society. I am not sure you have one, but they are relatively common and good at helping people find the best plants for what they need. Native plants also tend to do better and require less maintenance.

Adam

12

While waiting for my auto to be repaired a couple of weeks ago, I read an interesting article in a Field and Stream magazine. It was an interview of a man that “designs” top qualify bass lakes for people for prices ranging from 10K to 50K depending on the size of the lake. This does not include building the dam etc., just designing the lake. They had several diagrams and the description of one method he uses called a bass tree. He plants a 2" heavy duty PVC pipe vertically in the lake bed where the lake will be about 8 feet deep. He puts a stop consisting of four threaded rods sticking out of the pipe about 4 feet from the bottom. The stop could be done by cutting the pipe at four feet and slipping in heavy lag bolts so that they stick out the pipe and then glue a coupling to continue to pipe up to about the surface. He then takes a 4X8 sheet of half inch exterior or marine plywood and cuts a 2 inch hole in the center of the plywood. He slips this over the pipe and slides it down to the stop. Then he takes a 5 gal bucket, cuts a 2 inch hole in the bottom of the bucket, slides it down the pipe and fills it with rocks to keep the plywood down. Finally he places a piece of brush in the top of the pipe to mark the location. This contraption acts like a bass magnet when placed in the proper position in the lake. The bass will conjugate under the board and any lure/fly that is cast onto the board will be grabbed as soon as it slides off the board and drops towards the bottom. Just a thought if you want to get a bit fancy.

Jim Smith

13

I doubt if you would ever have to stock green sunfish. They seem dropped into midwestern water by “pond devils” and are extremely agressive. Once in a pond they appear to become the dominant species. JGW

14

As for some weed control what about a few grass carp or will they do more damage then good. Pluss they are a hellav lota fun on a fly.

15

Grass carp? read the bit above on green sunfish. Grass carp will take out all vegetation in the pond, wrecking protection areas for small fish and their tendency to stir up the elements play havoc with the eggs. My father tried to “improve” three of his MO farm ponds and turned them into bowls of muck instead. I actually hooked up with one of the grass carp on a wooly bugger (peacock herl base) and had a tremendous fight. Hurled the pig over the bank. Must have weighed 10-12 lb. Enjoy the vegetation, for that is part of the delicate balance. JGW

16

I don’t have a farm pond even though my neighbor does and he doesn’t manage it at all. I have to say though, that these are some of the most interesting posts I’ve read in a long time anywhere. You gentlemen surely know your ponds.

Thank you very much,

 Rusty <><
17

Ed,

I’m weighing in a little late but hope I can offer a few thoughts to help you and your friend out.

A few comments from reading the thread:

  1. there was mention of rocky and gravel areas in the pond. Be very cautious during construction to make sure all areas are first covered with good quality clay(two feet is my minimum)…otherwise you may be plagued with leaks and the heartbreak that brings with it.

  2. Some really good reading material on fish in southern ponds exists at http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm

It’s worth while spending some time there.

  1. do not use dog food or any other cheap food substitue. They can hurt much more than help by providing only filler and not nutrition for your fish. It just does not make sense to spend thousands on a pond and then save $5 on a sack of feed. Buy high protein floating feed generally at or above 32%.

  2. the comments on grass carp may be somewhat overstated. Grass carp do what their genetics are programmed to do…eat vegetation. If you stock too many, you will have little or no vegetation and problems. If you stock right, you can have your “cake and eat it too”. Right depends on your pond and its fertility. Start out with low stocking rates…no more than 2 per acre. Increase only if you need more vegetation control. Do not wait until you have a vegetation problem to stock them. It takes 15 to 20 per acre to get problem vegetation under control, and can all be prevented by stocking before the problem gets out of hand. I rotate out my grass carp every three years…after that time they get fat and lazy.

  3. green sunfish: I wouldn’t loose any sleep about them. You probably will have some, but if you have a good predator base, they will not cause a problem.

  4. crappie: high management fish, odds are against you being successful with them…some have, yes, but most have not.

  5. F1 LMB: This is a great choice for Southern ponds as the primary predator. They are a cross between the Florida strain and native LMB strain. I love them in ponds because they provide the growth of Floridas with the aggressiveness of natives. I have seen absolutely no evidence of hybrid depression, none at all. Over the years, you can add native genetics to the mix and maybe a few Floridas to spice things up. the F1 LMB is a great pond fish for Southern ponds. Stock them at 100 per acre if you want lots of bass/action and 50 per acre if you want larger fish or somewhere in between. First get your forage base established, well established before introducing the predator.

8 ) BG: I like to stock copper nosed BG, but their range is very similar to Florida LMB so you may be too far north for them. Check around your area to see if anyone has successfully grown them. I stock 800 Bg per acre and 200 RES per acre. That 80/20 ratio seems to work for me.

  1. SMB: can’t offer any help in that regard…we are to far south for them, but I would love to have them

  2. rainbows: Even if you can’t have a year around rainbow fishery, you can have a put and take with rainbows and provide your predators some great forage in the process. I stock them in my East Texas ponds for winter forage.

  3. Tilapia: I don’t know if they are legal in your area, but if they are seriously consider stocking them each spring. They genereate tremendous amounts of forage for your predators when they need it the most, as well as eat filamentious algae and other unwanted vegetation.

I love fly fishing in ponds…nothing much better than building the pond, stocking it, raising the fish, and catching them on the fly. Good luck!

18

gary and meadowlark both have made some very good points and you should consider many of them seriously.

I’d add that if going the LMB bluegill combination that it’d be the best bet to stock fathead minnows ONLY for the first growing season in order to establish a predator free breeding population. After the breeding population is established and BGs and LMBs are added, the predation pressure from the bass will be split among BGs and fatheads. Many people add everything at the same time and in most cases, the minnows are eradicated before establishing a breeding population, thus 1) costing more money to continue supplemental stockings of minnows and/or 2)decreased growth rates during the early years of the fishery.

Also, I have heard of hatcheries installing ‘maggot racks’ during the growing season for supplemental feeding. These are homemade floating structures with cages designed to hold rotting meat items (roadkill works well and is free)just above the surface of the water. How it works is the rotting flesh draws flies which eventually leads to maggots and given a little wind or an overabundance in numbers, maggots will fall into the water below. The best design allows for the cage to be in a desired location over water with adequate depth. In other words, it should be out from the bank a ways. Maggots=high protein and high protein=excellent body condition

19

This has been a thread that is about as good as it gets :smiley: :smiley:

Another example of the resource of this site 8)

I have no dog in this issue but it was indeed impressive…Thank you…

20

Gary, I haven’t been in Carroll County in 20 years. I suppose that I ought to go back through and visit my alma mater some time, but I haven’t been back in ages. I used to take I-40 to exit 108 and then head up Hwy. 22. Carroll Lake was a lot of fun, back then. It got fished hard, but it could really reward you. I usually found Clear Creek to be more rewarding. The spillway pool was always good and it seemed that nobody ever braved the bushes and snakes (not bad) to fish the stretch between that pool and the bridge. That was a sweet stretch for a fly rod. I didn’t realize until I looked it up last year that Clear Creek runs straight into the Mississippi River. No wonder there were such nice catfish in it.

The pond that we are discussing has a shelf that gets to about 6 feet deep and then drops away with a steep slope. That should limit the amount of damage that reeds and lotus could do. We have talked about structure to build. Since this is the Eastern Highland Rim of Middle Tn., eastern redcedar is present in abundance. I expect that there is some saw-work and Quikcrete in my future as we plant a few stakes.

Thanks again for your help and to everyone else,
Ed