On the Relative Strength of Knotless Tapered Leaders and of Tippets

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
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Until recently I assumed that a 5x leader and a 5x tippet from the same manufacturer had the same breaking strength, but this is apparently not the case. For example, The Orvis Mirage Fluorocarbon 5x tippet material has a claimed breaking strength of 5 pounds, while the Mirage Fluorocarbon knotless tapered leader has a claimed breaking strength of 3.2 pounds. (These numbers are taken from the packages.) Similarly, the claimed breaking strength of Orvis Nylon Super Strong tippet is 4.75 pounds, while the breaking strength of the 5x Nylon Super Strong knotless tapered leader is 3.2 pounds.

I contacted Orvis to confirm that these differences are real, and to find out why they occur. I was told that the differences were real and were caused by the extrusion process for making the leader. Somehow this manufacturing process causes the leader to be weaker than the corresponding tippet.

I have noted the same differences for other tippet/leader manufacturers (e.g., Seaguar), as well, so I think this is a difference that occurs for all manufacturers. I have not, however, looked carefully at the claimed breaking strengths for most of the other manufacturers.

The differences in breaking strength are surprisingly large. Taking as an example the Mirage 5x described above, the breaking strength of the leader is 36% lower than the tippet. This implies to me that a knotted leader is a stonger leader than a knotless leader of the same diameter, even allowing for the fact that the knots also cause a reduction in the stated breaking strength of about 15%.

In discussing this with the managers of a couple Orvis stores, they were unaware of this phenomenon, so I presume that most of us fishermen are also unaware of it. Based on this information, I don’t think that I will be buying knotless tapered leaders anymore. Rather, I will be building my own leaders by knotting together tippet sections on a furled leader butt.

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Interesting

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This implies to me that a knotted leader is a stonger leader than a knotless leader of the same diameter, even allowing for the fact that the knots also cause a reduction in the stated breaking strength of about 15%.

Only if every knot you tie in a leader is perfect and up to maximum strength.

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Tippet is also made with an extruder but would be a continuous run of several thousand feet which would make it easier to maintain control. Extruding a tapered Leader would require some sort of on/off, slow/fast process or adjustable die. I’m guessing that “Head Pressure” would vary and thus a loss of material integrity (Strength).
I would also think that in a “Production Run” of Tapered Leaders many would be much stronger but they are all rated based on the weakest.

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Also a good case for Furled Leaders!:mrgreen:

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I inspected factories for over 18 years, the closest thing I saw to manufacturing a tapered leader was producing tapered golf club shaft, which was done by stretch individual pieces of steel tubing. I would not be surprised to discover tapered leaders are produced in a similar manner, by placing monofilament of the desired composition in a jig over graduated head and a constant stretching pressure. I may be completely off, but if I had to produce some tapered knotless leaders, that is where I would start.

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You can read all about it here…

http://www.google.com/patents/US4155973

Brad

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For trout fishing, I only use knotless tapered leaders and I have had no problems with them. For years I have been using Rio leaders, with good success, but recently I have also started using Frog Hair leaders and I must say, I am very impressed with them. I once tried making my own knotted leaders but I was very unhappy with the amount of water disturbance from all the knots and with the amount of crud the knots picked up from the water, so I went back to knotless tapered leaders.

I tend to use one ‘X’ heavier than what most people would use on any given water so I can gat the fish in and released quicker.

Larry —sagefisher—

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Thanks for the post. It seems this varies between manufacturers and materials.

True for Rio Fluoroflex

Not true for Rio Powerflex

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I get that the breaking strengths are different. But does it really matter? It’s not like it’s required, or even desirable, to use a leader that ‘matches’ the ‘X’ size of the tippet.

Why do you have to use a leader that’s the same ‘X’ size as the tippet you want to use? Actually, why would you even WANT to?

You can always just, for example, buy a 3X leader, put 5X tippet on it, and have the benefits of the knotless tapered leader with no loss of strength. I’ve always done it that way, as I’ve always wanted my tippet be the ‘weak link’.

Just decide what tippet size you want, but a leader that tests ABOVE that, and you’re done.

It’s time for the outdated ‘X’ system to go away. It really has no true meaning anymore. We can all understand diameters in either inches or millimeters, and breaking strength in pounds or kilograms. This doesn’t have to be so hard.

Buddy

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I tried to find that without success, you are the Googlemaster.

That process is not unlike making golf club shafts it would appear.

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[QUOTE=Buddy Sanders;491603]I get that the breaking strengths are different. But does it really matter? It’s not like it’s required, or even desirable, to use a leader that ‘matches’ the ‘X’ size of the tippet.

Why do you have to use a leader that’s the same ‘X’ size as the tippet you want to use? Actually, why would you even WANT to?

You can always just, for example, buy a 3X leader, put 5X tippet on it, and have the benefits of the knotless tapered leader with no loss of strength. I’ve always done it that way, as I’ve always wanted my tippet be the ‘weak link’.

Just decide what tippet size you want, but a leader that tests ABOVE that, and you’re done.

It’s time for the outdated ‘X’ system to go away. It really has no true meaning anymore. We can all understand diameters in either inches or millimeters, and breaking strength in pounds or kilograms. This doesn’t have to be so hard.

Buddy[/QUOTE

I agree. Using a 7.5 ft 4x leader with a 1.5 ft 5x tippet would produce a stronger leader than using a 9 ft 5x knotless tapered leader.

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My understanding is that tapered leaders are made by taking (just say) mono of .019" heating it and stretching it to the smaller dia. So I would expect that it would be weaker than mono which was not abused in this way.
However, at our club last year we discusse and created leaders. Regardless of how much a knot degrades strength, the weakest point in the system will be either the knot on the fly or the knot where the tippet attaches to the leader.
We used a Loomis rod attached to a fish-weighin scale and applies enough pressure to double the rod. The scale measure 2# of pressure. It is the sudden snap of pressure that breaks tippets, not constant smooth pressure. So I agree, the weakness of the tapered leader is not a problem unless the line is jerked sharply.

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All this is great ASSuming you believe that the stated breaking strain is accurate. Almost all fishing lines of every type - nylon, fluoro, wonder-braids, uni-filaments, all of them - actually test 25-50% more than their stated test. I don’t know exactly the reason why the manufacturers do that. I have tested and tested and tested this over the years. Perhaps it is because the vast majority of fishermen tie sh** for knots, or they want to take into account wear and tear. Anyhow, it doesn’t matter what the package says because it is MOST LIKELY not accurate to start with.

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Just a note on the “x” system: Largely forgotten today, before the development of modern nylon copolymer leader materials (monofilament) leaders were made of silkworm gut (caterpillar gut, hence the misnomer “cat” gut). This material, removed from the intestinal cavity of the silkworm. was stretched (to a maximum length of 18-20 inches) and subjected to an acid bath to “fix” it. This section of “gut” was then drawn through a series of diamond dies in order to reduce its diameter to the desired size; 1x, 2x, etc. referred to the number of dies through which the length of gut was drawn to accomplish this.

The original availability of only 18-20 inch lengths is the reason why many, even modern, recipes for hand-tied leaders call for building the leader in 18-inch increments. The problems of using silkworm gut too, are largely (fortunately) forgotten. The material would dry out and become brittle unless it was kept in moist environment. A required accessory for the fly angler of those days was a leader box; usually a round aluminum can in which a coiled leader or lengths of tippet would be carefully stowed between a couple of layers of felt saturated with a mixture of water and glycerine.

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jszymczyk wrote:

" I don’t know exactly the reason why the manufacturers do that."

In regard to most mono lines breaking at higher test than that stated on the label.

What I was told by the folks at Pure Fishing, which own Berkely, Stren, and Spiderwire, is that they don’t EVER want a fisherman to return a spool of line claiming it was ‘weaker’ than the test stated on the spool. This started with the folks at Stren, before they were acquired by the forerunner of Pure Fishing. Stren used to claim that they had the ‘strongest’ fishing line. This was true, because they put fifteen pound line on a spool labeled at ten pounds. Their primary market was the burgeoning bass fishing anglers, and the tactic worked. In the early days of tournament bass fishing, most anglers used Stren, because they thought it was stronger.

In any event, it became an industry wide practice. This allowed for the bad knots, poor storage, and other after wholesale delivery conditions beyond their control, to not compromise the stated breaking strength of their lines.

I’ve had fresh 10 pound mono break at 18 pounds, and four pound mono break at 8 pounds. I’ve noticed differences in brands, Stren is still way under rated as far as breaking strength is concerned, with Magnathin being the closest (I don’t think they make it anymore). Trilene XL is closer to rated test as well, but still significantly stronger than it says on the box.

I was also told by companies that make fly fishing tippet that this was the primary reason that tippet seemed to be stronger per stated diameter than ordinary fishing line. Tippet is usually rated closer to it’s actual breaking strength, thus the wide difference between it and the regular mono.

The bottom line is this. If you care about the actual breaking strength to diameter ratio of your lines, leaders, and tippets, buy a scale and TEST them. Scales are inexpensive. A couple of hours testing your lines and your knots will be invaluable to you. You’ll learn a lot, and be more confident of your gear.

Good Luck!

Buddy

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good info Buddy!

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http://www.flyfisherman.com/2012/05/07/2012-tippet-shootout/

According to the above “Tippet Shootout” there is no systematic understatement of tippet strength. I would be surprised if there was a systematic understatement of leader strength.

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Or twisted mono leaders:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

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When I first got back into fly fishing after years of bassin’ I also was confused by the rating of line test per diameter of the tippet material. It was hard for me to reconcile a tippet at 5x (.006) at 4# test when my spool of 4# mono had a diameter of .009. It was only after putting the fact that lines in the marketplace are way under rated for # test versus actual breaking strength. The tippet materials being closer to closer to actual test are therefore smaller in diameter than the shelf lines in bulk.

There has been an interesting testing going on on one of the fish shows. They have been doing knot tests on various lines and knots pitting one against the other and using averages throwing out chances of bad ties or weak spots influencing the test. Consistently, regardless of knot, the lines go WAY above listed strength before breaking, but again this a steady pull test and not a snap test. Over the years I can remember a few fish that hit right at the boat and I’ve broken lines or even a rod with a near panic hook set with no line to stretch and forgive. I’ve learned in lines you can go lighter than listed test by at least a couple of line tests and still get the strength you’re really looking for but less diameter.