OK everyone. Here’s one we can all bust our brains over.
What is the oldest known surviving fly pattern? I seem to remember reading (maybe in the ‘Treatis of Fishinge Wythe an Angle’)that the Romans used a piece of fabric tied to a hook to catch fish. Anyone got any ideas about what this might have looked like?
I am making a display of the history of fly-tying for the local Arts Guild. I want to tie a few representive fly patterns typical of each of the different periods, Ancient, Middle Ages, 1400-1700, 19th and 20th century, the future. They will have an exhibition if I can do it.
Another question that intrigues me, anthropologetically(sic) speaking: Was fly fishing never done in the Orient…ever? I’ve never heard of much comming from that part of the world concerning flies or other-wise. I would’ve thought that cultures that brought the world origami, the tea ceremony, karate and kung fu, I-Cheng and Zen would’ve naturally gravitated towards fly-tying and fly-fishing. Anybody know anything about this?
I want to call attention to fly fishing to more people. Fly-Tying is an artform in the purest sense, and deserves recognition as such. And I rank fly-fishing right up there with Tai Chi as a mind and soul cleanser.
Gigmaster;
While I don’t have the answer I’m impressed with your endevour.
I would imagine a simple streamer. Up here in Michigan the Steelheaders sometimes just tie in a piece of yarn when tying on the hook. Could they be copying an ancient form of fly fishing?
Never thought of fly tying as an art form! Now I’ll look at my creative attempts in a whole new light. Sometimes I just grab what’s on the bench and tie it on a hook! People that see the result are impressed!
I want to see where this thread goes.
Forgot to add “Go Army”
[This message has been edited by Jack Hise (edited 29 December 2005).]
I started a thread on the 'Anglers On Line Bulleting Board(top one) about the oldest recorded fly. See the title: “Dry or Wet fly- Which came first?”
I’m not sure much was written till about Bernands(sp?) about 1495. There are some authors who’ve tried to illustrate the flies she wrote about. I believe one is John McDonald in his book, Quill Gordon. For flies used in the USA the book by Mary Orvis Marbury gives some good historical information. Of course, the book, The Complete Fly Fisherman - Notes and Letters of Theodore Gordon, has interesting and historical information but no illustrations.
Read somewhere long ago…that the Greek’s (or was it the Macedonians) used a fly that had red wool body with some brown hackle, using a willow branch and some Orvis Fly Line to fish the fly.
(kidding about the Orvis Fly Line, it was Cortland)
~Parnelli
[This message has been edited by Steven H. McGarthwaite (edited 29 December 2005).]
I found this on a site called Fly Fishing History. According to the site, this was written about 200A.D.
I have heard of a Macedonian way of catching fish, and it is this: between Bor?a and Thessalonica runs a river called the Astr?us, and in it there are fish with speckled skins; what the natives of the country call them you had better ask the Macedonians. These fish feed upon a fly peculiar to the country, which hovers on the river. It is not like the flies found elsewhere, nor does it resemble a wasp in appearance, nor in shape would one justly describe it as a midge or a bee, yet it has something of each of these. In boldness it is like a fly, in size you might call it a midge, it imitates the colour of a wasp, and it hums like a bee. The natives generally call it the Hippouros.
These flies seek their food over the river, but do not escape the observation of the fish swimming below. When then the fish observes a fly on the surface, it swims quietly up, afraid to stir the water above, lest it should scare away its prey; then coming up by its shadow, it opens its mouth gently and gulps down the fly, like a wolf carrying off a sheep from the fold or an eagle a goose from the farmyard; having done this it goes below the rippling water.
Now though the fishermen know this, they do not use these flies at all for bait for fish; for if a man?s hand touch them, they lose their natural colour, their wings wither, and they become unfit food for the fish. For this reason they have nothing to do with them, hating them for their bad character; but they have planned a snare for the fish, and get the better of them by their fisherman?s craft.
They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock?s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Their rod is six feet long, and their line is the same length. Then they throw their snare, and the fish, attracted and maddened by the colour, comes straight at it, thinking from the pretty sight to gain a dainty mouthful; when, however, it opens its jaws, it is caught by the hook, and enjoys a bitter repast, a captive.
Mike
There is no greater fan of flyfishing than the worm.
Patrick McManus
[This message has been edited by maddog48 (edited 29 December 2005).]
Well, for better, or worse, I have tied a version of Aelian’s Macedonean Hipporus. I took into account the materials, tools and lack of previous information on technique that would’ve been available at the time. By necesity, it is tied on a modern hook, however, a search of hooks from that time period shows that the basic hook style of today is essentially unchanged from versions available at that time, right down to the bronze material, of which many modern hooks are still made from, and the barb. I hand-spun the yarn from dyed wool, as I was unsure as to whether the hand spindle was in general use in that part of the world at that time. I used the hand-and- thigh method of spinning a short skein (about 1 foot). The wool was dyed with natural pigments that would’ve been available back then, and was taken from a breed of sheep that would’ve been available to the Macedonians of that time. I did not use any tools in tying this fly. It was done completely by hand (that’ll make you really appreciate a good bobbin). I used waxed cotton thread, which would’ve been available to the Macedonians in some form. I tied it with wings, rather than hackle because Aelian describes 2 feathers. To my mind, that would indicate wings (also the fact that it would seem a logical first step).
The species is in doubt. I have seen the fly described as a Hipporus Wasp elsewhere, but I can find no records of any such wasp, even going back as far as Galenius. Also, wasps are not noted for hovering over water, as Aelian describes them. The most likely suspect (in my opinion) is the Red Damsel-Fly (Pyrrhosmoa nympthula), which has always been indiginous and numerous to the area in question. There-fore, I tied the wings at a near 90 degree angle to the body, as I imagine a person would who was trying to imitate a damsel-fly in flight would’ve done, without the benefit of modern instructions.
I will post pictures as soon as I can figure out how to work a digital camera correctly.
Thanks again to everyone for all your help.
Semper Fi!
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 29 December 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 29 December 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 29 December 2005).]
With all due respect to Dr. Herd, I believe he is in error. He makes assumptions that are not supported by Aelian’s writings. He makes the assumption that “wasp-colored” means yellow and black. While many species are yellow and black, there are just as many that are solid red, brown and black. Also, the description of the fly would indicate that Aelian is saying that the fly is tied as an imitator type, hence the lengthy description of the Hipporus Fly. If it was not intended to imitate, then the semi-detailed description would’ve been unnecesary. I stand by my hypothesis that the Hipporus Fly was none other than Pyrrhosoma nympthula, the Red Damsel-Fly. Also from the description of it’s employment, I do not believe that they actually casted it on the water, but rather dangled it an inch or two above it to imitate the hovering habits of it’s progenator.
Also, the flies on Dr. Herds website tied to imitate the Hipporus Fly are wrong. Hackle and ribbing are not mentioned. I am sure that the first flies merely used feathers tied at the proper angle for wings. This would be the logical first step, much as a spear would have to come before the invention of the bow.
The website is a very interesting one, and I thank you for sharing it. I will be examining it in greater detail soon.
Semper Fi!
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 30 December 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 30 December 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Gigmaster (edited 30 December 2005).]
Gig I think you are pretty much right on the nose although it may not necessarily be a Damsel as other flies also hover. I do think your thought on the hackle simply as wings is most logical and also your described method of fishing. I think Prof Herd took some liberties. Most people do who want to rewrite any type of history.
I did note that the question said “surviving” pattern. I wonder does he mean an actual fly in some museum somewhere, OR, the pattern of which is still being tied?
The “surviving” term was my terminology. Perhaps it wasn’t the most correct word. I meant the oldest pattern that anyone or any source knows about. Personally, I believe the first Fly-Fisherman (Ugg) was probably the genius who first grabbed a live fly, dropped it on the water and whey-layed the stuffings out of the first fish to grab it, with his/her club! Later, as chewing tobacco and other plants became more popular, Ugg probably dropped a plug on the water, let the fish eat it, and then smacked them when they came up to spit! This gave rise to the first “Artificials Only” streams…
I got bored this afternoon, just before dark, so as an experiment, I walked out to Holly Creek (behind the house)absently playing with the Macedonean Hipporus Fly that I tied. I was just skimming it over the water about 6-10" above the surface to see what it would’ve looked like if they really fished it this way. I was using a 12’cane pole and was not expecting anything. It was just a casual experiment(boredom). Without warning, a 14" smallmouth bass rocketed out of the water, grabbing the fly in mid-air, and did a somersault back into the stream! It looked just like those videos of White Sharks becomming air-borne while comming up under seals, only on a smaller scale. I almost lost my pole! The attack was so sudden, unexpected and incredibly violent that it took 30 minutes for me to get my heart back down out of my throat! I released the bass unharmed. While not 100% conclusive proof, I’d say this lends creedence to the idea of fly-skimming for the Macedoneans. It obviously works at least some of the time.
I will post pictures as soon as I figure out how.
I guess I need to tie another one for the display. This ones wings are a bit beat up now.
