New Rod casting distance results

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

I got my new TFO TiCr X (someone needs to tell me what that stands for) in today. After starting the casting thread, you guys gave me some great advice, and I was anxious to get my old reel on my new rod and see what would happen. I only had about 15 minutes to try it out.

The results are in;

I was able to cast 23 paces, which is going to be close to 20+ yards. That was a solid 5 yards further then I was able to do on my last rig. It was also easier to cast and much easier to retrieve. This was unexpected. Normally, after a good cast I had to strip a good bit of line back in so I could manage my next cast, so only having to make a couple strips after a much longer cast then I am used to making was a great suprise, but I’ve got no clue why?

I still have not updated my line, so I am using the line that came on my bass pro whiteriver combo I mentioned in the other post.

Overall, I am a very happy camper/fly fisherman.

2

simple: faster action rod (stiffer). it’ll pick up more weight with less rod bend. that means that it requires less energy applied to the rod to launch the line off the ground/water for that initial backcast. so you can have more line beyond the rod tip with that same line and using the same effort and length of stroke.

and that alone will account for the increase in distance. you’re starting with more line beyond the rod tip, ie. aerializing or carrying more line. you’re probably shooting the same amount. if you were casting 45 feet and had 30 feet of line out past the tip, and now you’re starting with 45 feet of line out and casting 60 feet; you’re spending more effort and getting no more work done by the new rod. this is the “illusion” of the fast action fly rod. they are often switched to by undeveloped casters to gain distance when they should be developing technique and switching to the rod much later. if you develop the fundamentals to milk that 60’ cast out of a slow rod, and then you switch to a fast action rod; now you’re getting massive bang for the buck! you’re spending way less energy because you’ve learned to shoot a lot more line for the amount of line aerialized and you’re getting the extra “muscle power” of the stiffer rod being able to carry more line beyond the rod tip with the same effort.

but you just taught yourself that it’s the equipment. and 99% of casters who do that get lazy and live with weak to mediocre casting skills and buy faster and faster rods until:

a) they hit the wall (yes, there is a limit to what you can buy in this sense…and you’re almost there!)
b) their elbow, shoulder, or both disintegrates
c) they lose interest in the spend more $$$ to get better results gag and move on to “the next thang.”

p.s. if it ends up being “b” above, don’t worry. just contact a certified adaptive fly fishing instructor and they’ll help you learn to fly fish in a way that won’t hurt and that still works in spite of your injuries. :wink:

fyi, i own 3 tfo ticrx’s. it stands for: titanium chromide extra fast. you see, tfo also makes a ticr, which simply means titanium chromide. they’re great rods! but they are not good learning rods. and you should not buy a new rod to increase casting distance under typical fishing conditions. instead, you should learn to cast the rod you have further. faster rods are excellent for: punching through wind, controlling heavy flies and heavy fly lines (sinking lines, shooting heads, etc.), casting from a seated position, and launching very quick casts to cruising fish when sight-fishing. but they have some serious drawbacks, too. they pretty much suck for delicate presentations and light tippet-small fly applications. they take the fun out of catching small fish. and they transfer more shock to your elbow during casting strokes (which can lead to tennis elbow).

don’t take this post to mean i think you made a bad purchase/decision. just be aware of the pros and cons.

3

soooo, it’s not a magic rod?

That definetly makes more sense then my theory.

I can definetly feel the difference.

Is rod length a factor? My new rod is 9’ my old was 8’6".

4

no…not going from 8.5 to 9’. no difference there. 7.5 to 9’? maybe. but my favorite rod length for my gen purpose rods is 8’ because i can do anything with an 8’ that i can do with a 9’ except for a little bit of “reach” with a few mending techniques. but the 1’ of length helps maneuver some brushy situations, etc. more easily.

5

flyguy66 wrote

simple: faster action rod (stiffer). it’ll pick up more weight with less rod bend. that means that it requires less energy applied to the rod to launch the line off the ground/water for that initial backcast. so you can have more line beyond the rod tip with that same line and using the same effort and length of stroke.

and that alone will account for the increase in distance. you’re starting with more line beyond the rod tip, ie. aerializing or carrying more line. you’re probably shooting the same amount. if you were casting 45 feet and had 30 feet of line out past the tip, and now you’re starting with 45 feet of line out and casting 60 feet; you’re spending more effort and getting no more work done by the new rod. this is the “illusion” of the fast action fly rod. they are often switched to by undeveloped casters to gain distance when they should be developing technique and switching to the rod much later. if you develop the fundamentals to milk that 60’ cast out of a slow rod, and then you switch to a fast action rod; now you’re getting massive bang for the buck! you’re spending way less energy because you’ve learned to shoot a lot more line for the amount of line aerialized and you’re getting the extra “muscle power” of the stiffer rod being able to carry more line beyond the rod tip with the same effort.

but you just taught yourself that it’s the equipment. and 99% of casters who do that get lazy and live with weak to mediocre casting skills and buy faster and faster rods until:

a) they hit the wall (yes, there is a limit to what you can buy in this sense…and you’re almost there!)
b) their elbow, shoulder, or both disintegrates
c) they lose interest in the spend more $$$ to get better results gag and move on to “the next thang.”

This got me thinking about my own collection of very fast, slow & slower rods & it seems to me what your saying is I should work on being able to consistently lay out a good 50 ft. cast with my 4 wt. 7 11 Superfine, which is a very slow & soft rod, if I want to become a better distance caster.

Bedlams reaction to his new stiffer rods was exactly mine when I got my new Helios. I punched a few casts way out there and was amazed that I could do that. But your explanation of why this happened all makes sense & the rods are no longer magic. I’ll keep on using them for the same reasons you outlined elsewhere in your post but with the knowledge of what they can & can’t do.

6

The main reason I went to a new rod was I felt it was time for a 4 wt. I wanted a rod I could really feel the fish from, so the TiCr X may be a 5 wt. in disguise, which was not what I was after. I am still pleased with the purchase, but I might still be in the market for another rod. Maybe the tfo finesse?

7

Agree completely. The best casting DVD I own is George Roberts’ on saltwater distance casting. In it, he stresses over and over again that most of the distance you will ever achieve is due to developing a good, basic casting stroke. Good equipment and the double haul will help, but they are not substitutes for the basics.

8

tfo is a sponsor of mine and one of my favorite companies in the fly fishing industry. but i wouldn’t recommand the finesse 4wt. i got 1, used it once, and promtly resold it.

i am on prostaff w/elkhorn fly rods and reels for a reason. i think they make the finest economical trout/pan fish rods on the market. their 3 and 4wt rods are a dream! excellent casters, durable, and very sensitive. come with a good tube. for a fuller flex version in graphite black, go with the nomad series. for a prettier color, slight upgrade in hardware, and a more progressive taper (but no loss in sensitivity), get a traveler series. the 4wt is more versatile. but the 3wt is the sweetest small stream/pan fish rod around and casts MUCH bigger than it is. go with the 8’ in either. tell brian i sent ya and you read about his rods on faol. makes no difference to you or me really, but he likes to know these things. elkhorns come with a typical lifetime warranty like tfo’s too. price is about the same.

i teach mostly newcomes and the disabled. so i utilize entry-level priced equipment that reduces barriers to entry into fly fishing by taking it easy on the pocketbook but does not sacrifice performance or customer service. but i can use anybody’s rods i want to nowadays. even when fishing purely for my own pleasure, i still use elkhorns in weights below 7 and tfo’s above that 90% of the time. the orvis helios is a very sweet rod. tfo makes a new rod based on the same eliptical blank technology to dampen recovery. the tfo ticrx is a great fast action rod, and that 4wt will come in handy in windy conditions requiring a 4-5wt w/backbone, small streamer fishing, or banging banks from a drift boat. but you should keep it over-lined w/a 5wt line. most tfo rods will respond fine to over-lining by 1 line weight. it isn’t necessary, but it won’t hurt any. and it often really helps less developed casters. but if you want a more sensitive rod for lighter weight work, you don’t want a tfo. it’s not their “thang.” in the interest of fairness, another good option would be a mid or full flex orvis clearwater classic or sage launch in 4wt. either way, you can skimp on the reel in these lightweight rods and spend more on a good fly line! the reels below 6wt are just a place to store your fly line. but your fly line makes a big difference in casting, mending, drifting, and stripping performance. i use nothing but scientific anglers fly lines. and in the interest of full disclosure…once again…yes, they are a sponsor of mine.

9

I’m going to disagree a bit.

The main difference between the two rods is the action and the length. Personally, I think 6 inches of rod length makes a difference in distance casting. A rod is both a spring and a lever; it is a flexible lever. Give me a lever that is 6 inches longer and it gives me a mechanical advantage. It is basic physics.

Having said that, the main difference for what you have posted is the action or flex profile of the rod. If the loop sizes are identical, it requires about the same amount of energy to cast identical fly lines 60 feet with a slow, medium, or fast action fly rods of identical length. Again that is simple physics. Energy in = energy out + mechanical loss. Unless you can show me how a more flexible lever is less efficient in energy storage and release, the energy to make identical casts are identical.

Why then can you cast further with the fast action rod? What differs between the fly rods is how the far the rod bends to store equal amounts of kinetic energy as potential energy.

To explain why you can cast further, requires a deeper understanding of what happens when a fly rod bends - the effective rod length shortens as the rod tip comes closer to the casting hand. When the rod shortens two things happen, first it becomes a shorter lever which means there is some loss of a mechanical advantage. Slower (softer) rods bend more and have less mechanical advantage. But more importantly, we have to compensate for that shortening of rod length. Why?

The size of the casting loop is related to the path of the rod tip. The most efficient or tightest loop is created when the rod tip goes in a straight line. My belief is that the more a fly rod bends, the more difficult it is to maintain a straight rod tip path because the caster needs to compensate for the greater shortening of the rod by a corresponding convex path for the casting hand. A beginner has a more difficult feeling that bend and compensating accordingly.

Finally, a slower action rod has less reserve bend left in the rod to cast longer distances. At long distances, you are effectively casting more mass which means you are essentially going up in line size. Slower action rods are less able to do that without hitting their limit in their ability to further flex and store the energy that is required to cast further. At longer casting distances, the formula for energy in = energy out + mechanical loss, favors the faster rod because slower fly rods both lose their effective rod length and the ability to store potential energy faster than a stiffer fly rod.

I suspect that your “natural” timing and casting hand path is more suited to the faster rod. Some people like to take their time and have slower rhythm to their lives. I think these folks like slower rods. Some folks like a faster rhythm and are more suited to faster rods. That’s my theory anyway.

10

basically, you explained the relationship between rod action and loop formation excellently. but that wasn’t his question. his question was why it was easier to pick up more line with the new (faster) rod. similar, but not quite the same thing. thus, the similar but different explanations.

i disagree with your “theory,” however. casting rhythm isn’t a function of worldview. :wink: it is a function of the way you were taught and on what rod you were taught to cast. it’s like the impressioning of a migratory bird. that first location is “home.” that rhythm quickly becomes impressed into muscle memory as the baseline. and the problem is the stop and the rod recovery of fast action rods. these take a toll on 2 things: delicacy/finesse in presentation, hooksetting, fish playing, mending, and accuracy; and the caster’s hand and elbow over time (sometimes shoulder, too). you’re transferring a lot of shock to the end of the leader, have less flex to create reaction time, and transfer way more shock to the joints and hand.

those who have entered fly fishing over the past 15 years or so have mostly been introduced on faster action fly rods than those prior were. so they feel more at home with faster action rods. people mistakenly consider this their “natural” casting stroke. there is no such thing as a natural casting stroke. it is a learned behavior. folks who were taught on slower rods usually prefer a slower/longer stroke. you see this all the time: “old-timers” preferring slower rods while the “youngsters” and “yuppies” (post “the movie”) think they’re junk.

you are right about the length of a lever thing and physics. my point is that the difference is negligible at 8’6" to 9’ when talking fly casting. i can definitely cast a 9’ rod further than an 8’ rod. but in stream fishing, that distance is irrelevant to me. when you can cast an 8’ 3wt 70’, what’s the point? but when i go to saltwater, i take 9’ rods due to heavier lines, flies, more wind exposure, and to pick up the extra 10-20’ depending on conditions. but did you notice that i’m casting slower action rods when stream fishing and faster in my big game/saltwater rods and not really losing much distance by switching action and losing a foot of rod length? it’s all about learning to cast the rod in your hand!

if you want to be a good fly fisherman, you need to master a wide range of tools of the trade so that you can use the right tool for the job. if you take a fast action 9’ rod to a small stream in new mexico or arizona to catch trout that avg 8-14" long, you’re gonna be pretty over-gunned no matter the rod weight. furthermore, the slower rod will out roll cast the faster rod (all other things being equal) every time.

look at it like this: i once met a guy who played golf with nothing but a 3 wood, 9 iron, and putter. he wasn’t bad, either! he was a consistent high 80’s to low 90’s duffer. but he was no tiger woods! and you would never see any 60’s golfer doing that. why not? because it is a handicap not to have a full toolbox that you have mastery over.

and now, ladies and gentlemen, you can go and explain to your significant others exactly why you have to buy more fly rods! :mrgreen:

11

You initially said:

What I disagreed with was the part of the quotation that is bolded. I think it requires about the same amount of “work” to lift the line off of the water with a fast or slow action rod. What differs is the stroke length.

Work is energy applied over a distance. So to be precise, more energy over a shorter distance is required with the faster rod. So to be absolutely correct, actually more peak energy is required with a faster rod and not less.

What he is probably doing is starting to lift from relatively high rod position. This is a common beginner error. Since a longer stroke is need with the slower rod, with a lot of line out, he runs out of the required stroke length to do the work required. From the same high starting rod position he can apply more peak energy over a shorter time with a fast rod and do the work required to lift the line.

One of Lefty Kreh’s rules of fly casting is that you cannot start the fly cast until the fly starts moving. Stripping line does two things that helps him. First it removes the slack line so the line and leader are tight to the fly. Secondly he lowers the rod tip to the water when he strips in line and so he starts the cast from the lowest position.

I think if he lowered the rod tip and just removed the slack, he could make the pick up with his slower rod.

Whether the 6 inches of extra rod length matters is totally dependent on where you are fishing and the conditions. In the situation you outlined, it makes little difference. But in big river where you are wading deep or when in a float tube, that 6" does make a difference. It is both rod length and rod tip distance above the water that determines how far you can cast. Since he did not mention the conditions under which he uses the rod, I assumed we we discussing the effect of rod length on distance casting since the thread subject is “New Rod casting distance results”.

I cannot disagree with your point on the type of fly rod a caster is taught on becomes his “home”. However, that begs the question why he casts further with a faster rod since he presumable was “taught” on a slower rod. That is why I brought up the point of a natural rhythm. Jerry Seim actually introduced me to this concept in his podcast on the Itinerant Angler. I thought it fit with why Bedlam liked his new rod more than his old rod.

I totally agree with your point about being able to master all tools. I think that is very important.

I think we are more in agreement than in disagreement really. It depends on what we want out of a rod and how and where we are fishing it.

I’m going fishing now and using a relatively slow 8’ 4 wt rod (a Gary Borger Targus Light Touch) on a small stream so I am using what I believe is the best tool for the job.

12

well, now I have a question for you…a buddy of mine is in a wheelchair and has about 30% strength in his hands. how would you have him hold a fly rod (I’ve been wanting to get him out for a while)? When he plays tennis, he has to tape the racket to his hand…do you think that’d work with a flyrod? I might have him try that out the next time we’re in a drift boat.

13

[QUOTE=flyguy66;317653] if you take a fast action 9’ rod to a small stream in new mexico or arizona to catch trout that avg 8-14" long, you’re gonna be pretty over-gunned no matter the rod weight. furthermore, the slower rod will out roll cast the faster rod (all other things being equal) every time.

That may be your experience and it is not mine. I fish for trout on small streams in Colorado for 120 days a year and a 9 ft. 5 wt. rod gives me the muscle I need for the frequently strong wind conditions and it roll casts best.

14

Interesting arguments by all. I typically fish Arkansas rivers as they are the closest to Jackson, MS. Norfork, the White, which I would call big rivers. Now some of the improvements I am experiencing are the rod, and some is practice. All I know is my loop looks tighter, My pickup is easier and my cast are longer. I know I need to upgrade my line next, but getting with someone who knows what they are doing would definetly be huge. There is a group of fly fishermen that meet the third tuesday of the month at the local bass pro. I plan on crashing that meeting with rod in hand.

Thanks for all the info.

15

Lots of good fly guides in that area. Two are Davy Wotton and John Wilson. John used to post here, but I’m not sure if he still does.

Both have websites – might be worthwhile to hook up with one of them.

16

About 10 years ago a woman brought a peculiar fly rod into my local shop to show the owners. The rod and a cork grip than went about 18 inches total from the butt of the rod. There was no reel seat. The grip was cylindrical except one side had been sanded/filed flat. According to the woman, the rod had been built like to by Orvis for her father, who had had a stroke. He fished with it strapped to his forearm. He fished from a chair with the reel in his lap.

17

Go back and do an experiment for me with your other rod. Angle the rod tip down to the water and strip in all the slack so that your line and leader are tight to the fly and see if it isn’t easier to pick up all the line with that slower rod.

If you still cannot pick up all the line, then try a roll cast pick up. After the slack has been taken out, roll cast forward to aerialize the line then do the back cast. The roll cast breaks the surface tension, and makes the following pick up easier. Let us know how it goes.

Do that with your faster rod and your pick up will be even easier.

18

Silver,

I bet on you. I have found that the BIGGEST error novices make that I have taught is that they start the tow-in of the line preparatory to making the backcast with the rod tip held too high creating a lot of slack in the line that must be taken out before the cast can be made.

Only addition I would make to your advice is to make the tow-in very slowly so that the water surface grips the line.

19

I completely agree with y’all on this. It had not dawned on me in this thread.

20

I will be in Mountain Home, AR, 10/1-3 at the Socon Conclave teaching adaptive casting, tying, and trip leading workshops and doing some demonstration tying.

Davy Wotton (mentioned above) is a good friend of mine. Another friend and certified casting instructor and excellent guide is Denis Dunderdale. To locate either of these guys, just go to or call Mountain River Fly Shop in Cotter.

During the conclave 10/1-3, you can get FREE casting lessons from certified casting instructors just about all day every day.

You would improve more in an hour with a good casting instructor than you will in a year or two of reading, watching videos, talking to us on-line, and working at it on your own.