I am a recently-new fly fisher. I have fished most of my life but never fly fished until about 4 months ago. I now have about 5 fishing trips under my belt and am in the “dangerous knowledge” area( 
) if you know what I mean.
I am also an avid dirt bike rider. Wooooo… “holy worlds colliding Bat Man”.
Not really. Many dirt bike riders are outdoor enthusuiasts in general. Many hunt, fish, hike, camp, etc.
The reason for my comment is this. I had heard from some fly fisherman in the past that they “didn’t like us” trail riders because we caused too much silt to be deposited in streams.
This is where reality surfaces. I have noticed that while I fish I stir up a bunch of silt, sand, dirt, gravel, plant life, etc. When fishing I can do this for HOURS while I slosh around in the stream. I thought about this for a while and concluded that fly fishermen stir up much more junk in streams than any dirt biker could. When riding I cross a stream and am in it(at most) for 10 seconds. We purposely try NOT to spin our rear tire because it only makes it more possible for us to get stuck…or worse… drop our bike in the stream, possibly ruining an expensive engine.
So the next time you are fishing and see “the enemy on wheels” as many “environmental” types view them, think about what I just wrote.
The above does NOT intend to “right” the practice of some 4-wheelers(whom we get lumped in with) that spin donuts in streams. That is irresponsible and should not be allowed.
Just an observation here. Not trying “to start something”.
While the dirt bike riders do major things to my feelings about trout streams as they ride through them, or along them, the part that bothers me most is the sound. It just rips apart the quiet, and peace that comes from finding a little stream and gently setting tiny dries on its surface. I feel violated.
Do you think the same when you hear a Harley barelling down the road next to you? You should.
Please in the future just get the satisfaction that someone is enjoying the great outdoors in their own form. Your needing to get away from noise is not their fault.
My bike is quiet(under the 96db rating the National Forest Service mandates …more like 93) and it will stay that way. The difference between 93db and, say 98db, is HUGE! I also do not like loud bikes and I also make a point to try to keep my bike quiet when approaching someone "enjoying ‘solitude’ ". If I am going downhill I will coast my bike past someone. If I am going uphill(and can) I will stop and let people walk past me. I also take my helmet off to show them I am a graying 48-year old and not some “young punk”
And that’s the reason I don’t say anything … it’s just someone else enjoying the outdoors in their own way. Doesn’t mean I have to like it. Doesn’t mean I’ll inflict my ways on someone else. Do I agree a Harley is loud? Da*m straight, but they’re not running the streams, they’re out on the highways. As you, even at the advanced age of 48 :roll: , mature in your flyfishing, and your age advances closer to mine, you’ll understand what I’m saying.
I might also add, the intention is not to slog around in the stream. Better to walk gently, quietly, and not stir up the entire stream bed. You’ll catch on, eventually. Just try not to do harm in the process. Some of us have different ways of enjoying the outdoors ourselves.
I know of no dirt bike rider that is “running the streams”. That just does not happen. If you do that with a dirt bike you will sooner or later ruin an engine as it was stated by the poster.
The vast majority of dirt bike riders are NEVER SEEN nor NEVER HEARD.
And trying to talk to a 48 year old as an immature kid is kind of rediculous, don’t you think?
Walk away from the keyboard … walk away from the key board. Nah.
BBW, you need to get out more. There are numerous places that trailbikes run the streams. The kids don’t care, cuz Daddy will buy them a new one when they ruin the one they’re abusing. They are seen and heard, and they seem to take joy out of deranging the peace and solitude many people seek streamside.
There are people of every kind using the streams; some with deep respect, others with no concern for anyone or anything other than themselves. But it’s that way in life too. As an individual ages, hopefully there is a maturity that goes with it; and the responsiblity to be gentle with the earth and all its’ wonders.
As I said before, some of us have different ways of enjoying the outdoors. We don’t try to inflict our ways on others, and hopefully others won’t try to inflict their ways on us.
Ridiculous? Nah. I just hope that when he/you reach my age there’s still some great outdoors left to enjoy.
Unfortunately there’s a certain idiot factor in all activities. There are irresponsible dirt bike riders, and irresponsible fisherfolk (we’ve all seen the “San Juan Shuffle”). It does little good for us to butt heads over which group is the worst, the energy is better devoted to making sure whatever we do, we do it responsibly and with respect for others using the same resource. Our best bet is setting a good example always, educating others when we can, and cleaning up afterwards where we must. Wild areas, unfortunately, are getting rarer and rarer, people are not. There will be crossed purposes, there’s no getting away from that. I fish near a bike trail often and Betty’s right, the noise can shatter a quiet moment, but when the bike passes, the quiet returns. BBW and DRbillZ are right in that many, probably most riders know they are sharing the land they use and act accordingly.We are, after all, much more likely to notice and remember the few bad apples that offend our sensibilities, making it seem like “all of them” are that way. This thread has great potential to teach two worlds how not to collide as long as we concentrate on that and don’t turn it into an “us v. them” arguement. There’s room in the world for everyone. There’d better be, it’s the only one we got.
My two cents, for what it’s worth.
Well said bluegill. I just wish more people thought like you did.
Sounds like YOU need to get out more as I have been in dirt biking for 35 years and have never seen someone run a dirt bike up and down a stream. And no Mom and Dad won’t buy them a new one because most of them can barely afford the one they bought the kid. Where do you get your ideas? YOu need to go to a local ride. I’d like to invite you to the one we have at a local ranch. 1,000 riders and when we leave no one can tell we were there, we leave it that clean. That is what the ranch people tell us and why they invite us back every year(our 11th year coming up). They love to have us come. Funny. One of the rules is no one is allowed near the streams with a bike(to wash it in…not to ride in as no one would). I have crossed the stream before but never “run up the stream”. That just does not happen.
I don’t doubt you see kids playing near streams or riding thru one(but running up and down them?). When you see kids making a nuisance of themselves at the Mall do you say to yourself “all kids should be banned from the Mall?” I didn’t think so, so why do you think all dirt bikers are bad people? (reading too many articles in the Sierra Club literature and believing it again are we?)
You ready for a date in October? Come on. Have an open mind.
Changed my mind. Just forget about it.
A couple of years ago I worked for the state running some pay-to-fish ponds. These ponds were on the same property as the state trout hatchery and the land is also stocked with pheasents in the fall.
On one boarder of this chunk of property there is a nice enough trout stream that it was made a trout management area
Up stream about two miles there is a motocross track and club.
The state police would often wait in my office for the dirt bikers sneaking onto the state land.
The only way to reach the state land was by crossing the trout stream at the power lines.
This was not just some kids who lost their way.
This happened regularly and the cops knew it.
Several issues here. The one most relevant to this board is the effect of people on the stream bed. People who fish need to try to disrupt the stream bed as little as possble. Try walking along the stream, not in it. Don’t shuffle and kick the bottom when you are in the stream. Walk out as soon as possible. Accept that you being there disrupts to some degree the natural order of things and therefore try and have as little impact as possible.
As for dirt bikes. First I was a dirt biker, but now I’m not. My point is that I know from where I speak. If you believe that 1,000 bikes can congregate and leave no sign you are… wrong. Tracks are destructive. They cause channels for run off which takes the water off the mountain/hill rather than leaving it there to adsorb. They also destroy habitat. As strange as it may seem, many animals will not cross an open path like that. It is not what they expect and something as wide as we are tall is many times wider than small animals are tall.
Bikes leak or burn oil. 2 & 4 strokes. Look at the asphalt highway when it rains. That shine is from oil on the road surface. That same oil residue leaks onto the trails you ride on. Add to that burning, case leaks, 2 stroke engines, gas spills etc.
Sliding around turns, jumping, hill climbing not to mention regular tire spin all leave sign and are at a minimally destructive to the track.
And then there is noise polution. Many people prefer to ride in the power band of their bike, not lugging it and that is noisier.
Lastly I cannot imagine 1,000 bikes out for a day’s ride and not leaving nuts, bolts, attachments and other smaller mechanical items along the way.
At least accept that biking is to some degree destructive. I do believe that off road riding has its place, but because of all of the above it needs to be controlled and limited.
Remember, one bike dropped in a stream can ruin a fish’s whole day (and then some).
jed
I would like to try to bring Betty and BBW to a better understanding.
Betty, BBW is in west Tennessee. In the western part of Tennessee, you are more likely to find quicksand in the bottom of a stream than rock. The stream bottoms are usually sand and silt. They fall away quickly and without warning. If one were to try to ride anything but a boat in them, one could go from a water depth of 4 inches to 4 feet before being able to react. As somebody who has waded the Obion and Forked Deer drainages, I can personally vouch for the fact that this can happen to a wader, let alone somebody moving fast. (Mind you that a wader who hits a long, steep, sandy silt slope ends up moving PDQ. Patrick McManus did a good job of describing the sight.)
Another thing is that many dirt bike and ATV riders in Tennessee stay on trails that have been made for that purpose. The trails are common in Tennessee. In that regard, the damage done is minimized. Trust me, the local farmers that I knew would NOT tolerate people running wild across the fields on bikes. Nor would they tolorate law enforcement that wasn’t responsive to their needs.
A dirt biker who just ran around up and down banks might find himself in a lagoon, and I don’t mean the kind that Gilligan used to fish in…
Warm regards to all,
Ed
Only 4 feet? Not deep enough. Isn’t BBW like at least 5’6"? :shock:
Now there is a retort :lol:
Betty,
He used to be 5’ 6" but now that you’ve cut him down I think 4’ would suffice. :roll: :lol:
jed
BBW,
You can state ANY height you want in your Profile.
Your Welcome!
Doug 
Jed and EdD–
That’s exactly the type of thing I was hoping to hear. Calm, intellegent approaches to a situation meant to bring both sides to an understanding. I for one didn’t know that about Tenn. streams, and apparently BBW’s group is a lot more in tune with their surroundings than the folks on dirt bikes around here (I live in Betty’s neck of the woods). Our streams take a beating from bikers, atv’s, and I even got chased out of a stream once a few years ago by a 4x4 pickup driving down the middle of the creek. It’s nice to know that’s not the norm everywhere.
Bluegill222, what I posted applies to the streams in west Tennessee. It applies to the area where the watersheds drain into the Mississippi River and not the Tennessee River. In middle Tennessee, where I live, (almost) all is limestone. The creeks and rivers tend to have areas of hard, limestone bottom. Some are flat enough to be used as roads. Some are, literally. There are stretches of rural, county roads that are nothing in the world but the solid limestone creek bed. Some of them are suprisingly smooth. That and low cost are why they are roads and private drives. These sections are so shallow that they are not likely to sustain much in the way of a fish population. Obviously they can’t sustain much of a bug population because of the traffic.
On the other hand, one needs to know which stream one is driving in. I know one creek that looks like it could be a fine road for a 4WD vehicle. The problem is that you come around a sharp turn and it drops straight down into a pool 3-5 feet deep. Depth depends on siltation at the moment. A tow truck CAN get into position to extract the offending vehicle, but it will cost you a little something extra, in addition to your trans-axle…
Another issue for stream runners is that areas where there is a flaw, such as a crack or hollow in the limestone, fill with wash. If the driver is lucky, it is rock and gravel. If the driver is unlucky, it is mud. If the driver is REALLY unlucky, it is quicksand. (Note to the wader, those places are also good spots to find snakes. Look for a thin line of vertical herbage that goes into or across the stream in shallow water.)
It’s just like the excitement of a circus. Ya pays your money, ya takes your chances. I tend to cheer for the creeks.
I’ve only been fishing for about 50 years, but in my limited experience I think a string of God’s thunderstorms will raise more silt and change more bottom contours of trout stream than a day’s fishing by a few folks could ever hope to do. I’m not a biker, but in all my years on streams and rivers I have NEVER seen a bike running the waterway, only crossing it at 90 degrees to get to the other side as safely as possible.
Sorry, Betty, but I personally believe that most well intentioned enviornmentalist turn into rabid protectors of an environment that frequently can take better care of itself without out our intervention. If a waterway is so sensitive it cannot take fishers walking in it, then the DNR should close it to ALL access by EVERYONE, including amateur environmentalists, until such time as it has healed.
God gave this all to us to enjoy, and he did not make it so sensitive that it will break at the slightest touch. Nature is like a child…very resilient and loves to be embraced by everyone. She’s tougher than we give her credit for.
Joe