Need help choosing a fly line....

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I have decided to spend more time this year with fly fishing my local rivers for smallmouth bass and will do this with a 9 foot 6 weight TCR fly rod. What I am trying to determine is what fly line to use. I do not mean brand or weight line. I intend to use a 6 weight fly line but do not know if I should use WF, full sinking or intermediate sinking line. My rivers here are not real wide or deep. The river pools/holes may be 6 to 8 foot at the most in depth with an overall average of around 6 feet and the riffles in between the pools will be anywhere from 6 inches to 2 foot in depth. I intend to tie up and use clousers, streamers and surface poppers. I have been experimenting lately with a 6wt full sinking line and a 6wt sink tip line and do not like the way a sinking tip line casts. The full sinking line has a smoother turn-over and is easier for me to cast my clousers and streamers. The sink tip, for me, seems more like “chuck and duck” and that may be the casting style or lack of a casting style by me. I need more depth for my flies than what a weight forward will give but feel the weight forward would work better for poppers. I have never tried an intermediate sinking fly line and would like more information from those who have experience with intermediate sinking line. For instance, would an intermediate sinking line work for my streamers and clousers and also work for bass poppers? If, not, than I assume I will need to carry 2 spools with me and use WT for surface fishing and some sort of sinking for clousers/streamers.

So, I need everyone with experience with these lines to advise me or at least give me a description of your experiences with them so that I will have more data to assist me with my choice. If you fish for smallmouth with the fly rod, let me know if you feel I need to stay with a 6wt line on the 6wt rod or if I should overline to 7wt. I have heard and read both sides of this and need input from those with experience with overlining one line weight. I usually use what the rod is rated for, but, if there is an advantage with overlining one line weight for smallmouth fishing, I need to hear what it is.

I just need input to help me here and I do appreciate your help.

Thanks

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Warren, I can’t speak to the particulars you are inquiring about, but I can speak to the excellent quality and craftsmanship of RIO lines. For the money, you will find none better. Made right here in the good old U.S. of A. in Idaho Falls, Idaho - the heart of flyfishing in the west. Check out their website and match them up according to what you’re trying to do. Also, if you have questions don’t hesitate to call them or contact them. Some of the best guys I know.

Kelly.

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Thanks, Kelly

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Warren,

What would be the problem with using a WF6F line and a sinking furled leader around 7-9’ long? Tippet on the end of that is going to get you to the fish in most of your holes. I honestly have know true experience here but it sounded reasonable to me.

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Kevin,

I thought along those same lines, but, have since discovered that smallmouth bass are not trout and they will hug the bottom and you really need your flies as close to the bottom as possible and they need to stay down there during the retrieve. Any current on the river will have a tendency to lift your flies up due to the floating fly line. I feel, and I could be wrong, that the fly needs to be down close to the bottom when fishing the pools. When fishing 3 feet or less water, I feel the WF line will work fine, but, not in deep water.

I could be over thinking this and that is why I need those with experience in this type of fly fishing to give me their opinions.

I hope this thread gives me a lot to think about and also help me with this decision. Last weekend I used a full sinking line in my trout waters and have learned that setting the hook with full sinking line is sure different. Lots of long distance releases but I soon learned the true meaning of “strip setting” a hook! I also caught several black perch and bluegill that were on the bottom honestly feel I would not have caught them with a floating line this early in the season. Their colors showed that they were down deep and they were schooled up in one spot and the water was still very cold. Another fishing buddy was with me and he fished ahead of me and was using floating line and he did not get any “hits” from these fish. I had him drift the same fly I was using through the area I was catching fish and he had no hits and was using one of my 7 foot Vanish Furled leaders which sink.

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99.95% of the fish I have ever caught have been trout so I guess that does shade my thinking a bit. :slight_smile:

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Warren,
You have proposed many different combinations. Have been fishing for smallmouth since a friend of mine got me hooked on them in the late 60’s.
Are you wading or floating?

From my personal standpoint and experience–
Most of my sm fishing has been in a canoe. Only recently wading in one particutal area close to where I live now and only in the summer–no waders.
All of it has been on big water–The James and the New–1-200 yrds wide. A couple of smaller streams 30-50 ft wide.
Have always use a 6wt. line- 6 wt Wulff triangle taper floating on a 9 ft. 6 wt rod.
I dont worry about a tapered leader for this kind of fishing. Now use flurocarbon–4 lb.
Have always used either a popper(size 4 or 2} or one particular wooly bugger(size 10 or 8}
Poppers–never had any luck with ones that have rubber legs. Favorites were the old Pecks with the red and white dots on the bottom. Frog pattern. Can’t find them anymore.
Wooly bugger–weighted. No bead head. Son ties them and they match the crayfish in this area.

Never had much luck fishing the deeper water. I want to be able to see the rocks under the water. They are what I cast to. Thats where the sm are–behind the rocks. Even with 3-4 ft of water they will come up and take the poppers. Presentation is not critical. Placement of popper is. The bigger the splash, the harder the hit if you can put it on top of them. Even in fast water, cast to the rocks. The deeper water is for floating the boat, the shallow water is for catching fish.

Using the wooly bugger in the deeper pools, I will cast to the upper end and more or less let it dead drift. Will usually end up catching more perch and red-eyes than smallmouth. With the weighted bugger and the 8-9 ft. fluro leader, I believe it goes down to at least 4 ft. in very little distance but with the depth you are talking about, it would not be on the bottom.

I am partial to the poppers for smallmouth, and have always used a floating line. I have used a sinking line once, on a guided trip in Montana and I didnt think too much of that type of flyfishing. I wouldn’t think a sinking line would work with a popper. You may have to consider two types of fishing. Streamers and clousers. with sinking line that you are comfortable with, in the early spring and then switch to topwater and floating line after the trees leaf out. Again, I have found that topwater in my area is much more productive.

I don’t know if any of my rambling has given you any usuable information or not. I must say I am not much of a “technician” when it comes to fly fishing. I dont weigh my fly lines or “build” tapered leaders or take casting lessons. I just do what has worked the best for me over the years through trial and error. It is an enjoyment for me and not a job. LOL Hope this was some help to you.

George

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My experience with sinking line in fast water water where you find the smallies, ( they in rivers like the fast water for the oxygen and food flow) is that the sinking line gets hung up on the bottom quick, a mess for me, I find I need to get the fly down with weight and use a flowting line, I cast up and across letting the current swing it down and also will strip it across when the line has drifted down lower than me… I don’t like this word…lol “BUT” a split shot can help alot…

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Warren,

I have never seen a smallmouth so I cannot speak directly to that part of the equation. However I fish clouser minnows and poppers quite a bit on 5 through 12wt rods and have fished sinking lines in rivers for trout and stripers.

I use intermediate lines quite a bit, including for topwater work in open water and windy conditions, but do not think they would be effective for your situation. Since they sink slowly, in a current they won’t fish much differently than a weight forward unless the current is very slow. I have used intermediate lines very effectively in slow moving spring creeks but found them less effective in faster water.

When you say ‘sink tip’ do you mean a 10ft sink tip or an integrated line with a 24 to 35 foot sinking section combined with a floating or intermediate running line. You cast with the sinking portion outside the rod tip and shoot the rest if needed on the cast. These lines were originally designed for salmon and steelhead in rivers. The versions with floating running lines are quite effective in rivers since you can mend the running line if needed. You may consider an integrated line with a 200 to 250 grain head. Most line makers have one or more such lines in their catalog. These will be smoother casting than the short sink tip.

You mention a ‘TCR’ rod. Did you mean Sage TCR which is a very fast action rod that excels at distance casting. You say your rivers are not wide. With the Sage TCR, if you are going to be making mostly casts with poppers and weighted flies at less than 50 feet, I would probably go up one line size. I upline all my rods when casting poppers or weighted flies like clouser minnows when making mostly shorter casts. The heavier line will help load the rod for shorter casts and help carry the heavier or bulkier flies. In fact, if my casts are mostly going to be less than 35 ft, I upline by 2 line weights. If by ‘TCR’ you meant “TiCr” as in Temple Fork TiCr, I own a 6wt., fish mostly weighted flies like clouser minnows, and use a 7wt WF line most of the time unless most of my casts will be more than 60 feet. I also use a Teeny T-200 for sinking presentations with this rod. If you meant something other than the Sage or TFO models I mentioned I cannot recommend based on direct experience, but I would probably start with something along the same lines unless the rod was really soft.

One possible option would be to go with a multi-tip line. These usually have a set of 15ft interchangeable tips that include a floating, intermediate, and two or three sinking tips. Of course you may still not like the way the sink tip sections casts. The examples I have tried did cast better than the standard 10ft sink tip.

Another suggestion that may work for you is to use a 5ft sink tip line. I am aware of two of these currently available: the Teeny Mini Tip and the Orvis Streamer Stripper. The 5ft sink tip casts almost like a standard weight forward. When used with a sinking fly it will help get the fly deeper than with a floating line. The short sink tip is easier to pick up and re-cast. You can ever cast poppers with it if you are only going to make a short retrieve before picking up and re-casting. With a long retrieve the sink tip will pull the popper under and the rig will be harder to pick up for the next cast. I have used these lines quite a bit in slow to moderate flowing streams for trout using weighted streamers. I make the cast upstream of a location I want to work with the fly, make a few stack mends so the sink tip and fly drift with out tension so they sink faster, then start the retrieve with the line and fly reach the zone I want the fly to swim through.

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George,

Thank you-Thank you

Your response was what I was looking for! Experience

Like you, I just love to fish with a fly rod and do not worry too much about what species I fish for. I started out with the trout because I have 2 tailwater areas here that have trout in the cold water sections and I find trout a lot of fun on a fly rod. I have also fished for and caught walleye, black perch (red eyes), bluegill, catfish, shellcrackers, gar, etc. I just enjoy the fishing and using a fly rod. Lately, my trout waters are getting crowded so I have decided to explore the warm water sections of my 2 rivers and I have been told by the “old timers” here that there are a lot of smallmouth in both rivers and they are not getting too much pressure. Since I own a NuCanoe and enjoy using it to get away from the crowds, I will be using it to explore the warm water. Since I also tie all my own flies and poppers, I will be using a popper pattern that Lefty uses and it is like you discribed, no rubber legs. It is just the popper head and has deer hair for the body and tail. Very basic, but it has great reviews. I may end up just using a WF line but I can carry another reel spooled with sinking line to experiment with. At our last 2 club meetings we had 2 guest speakers who fish for the larger trout only and they both use 6 wts spooled with full sinking line and that is what got me thinking maybe I need to experiment with full sinking line. I guess I have all these questions because I always go at things 100% and am willing to explore all areas that others are using. I guess I am just trying to shorten my learning time by “picking” the minds of those who have learned the short cuts. I really think you need to come to TN and teach me!! : ) I am really looking forward to this new experience with the fly rod.

You have really been a lot of help and I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

Thank you very much and do come fish with me when you can.

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Your response is another response I was looking for! I thank you…

Yes the TCR is the Sage TCR. I just started fly fishing about 15 years ago and before that I fished bass tournaments for about 30 years before the lakes just got too crowded and the prize money got large enough that the “cheaters” came out of the wood work and just destroyed my enjoyment of fishing. I sold the bass boat and picked up a fly rod and went to the rivers where I found my enjoyment of fishing again. The fast pace of tournament fishing gave me a fast casting stroke and a good rod building friend of mine told me that I needed to use fast action rods due to the fast casting stroke I had. I have a Sage XP in 3wt and 4wt and love them both. My rod building friend told me that he thought I should upline the Sage TCR to 7wt line and he felt this would slow the TCR down closer to the action of the XP which I really enjoy using. I have used the 6wt TCR for trout fishing and I enjoy using it for my streamer/bugger fishing. It is very light in hand and a joy to use all day. I also make and use my own furled leaders and was wondering if maybe I should use one for my smallmouth fishing. Right now with my experimenting with clousers and streamers on the 6wt, I have been making up leaders from clear mono. Two guest speakers at our club meetings have stated that they make up their leaders with either clear mono or fluorocarbon. They recommended 15 to 20 inches of 14 pound test for the butt, 15 to 20 inches of 10 or 12 pound test for the middle and then about 2 foot of either 8 or 10 pound test for tippet. I subsituted 6 pound test for the tippet section and it seemed to work just fine on the full sinking line I tried. The sink tip line was the integrated sink tip on floating line. Another friend loaned me the line to try so I could compare it to the full sinking line. He stated that the sink tip section was only about 10 feet long. It is a Sage line and that is all I know about it. He had it spooled on one of his reels and he just told me to use his reel and give it a try. He does a lot of saltwater fishing and he is a Sage dealer so I do not know if he has "doctored " this line to his saltwater needs or not.

Your information and the information that George posted has been a tremendous help to me and I do appreciate the 2 of you sharing your knowledge. I am not sure what I will end up using, but, I know that I want to keep it as simple as possible so that I do not lose fishing time playing with changing lines/reels while on the water. I will continue to research all options and try to reach a happy medium and just go fishing. I do know that I am really looking forward to fly fishing for smallmouth.

From the information that you shared and George, I feel pretty confident that I will use a 7wt line on the TCR 6wt and am leaning more to WF for my river fishing. I just need to figure out what type of leader I will be using. I am not trying to get too technical about this. I just want to find what I need that will be effective for my rivers. I do enjoy the researching and experimenting on the water though. I learn a lot doing that and always learn something that I can apply to my other fly fishing. Fly fishing is fun for me and I do not want to make it into work. There is just something about the “fight” any fish gives you on a fly rod that cannot be matched with any other type of rod.

Thanks so much and if you can contribute any more info from what I have just posted, please, feel free to share it.

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… but if I can remember the point ??

First of all, Warren, congrats on the TCR. That is quite a stick. I only fished one for a few hours on the South Fork of the Snake a couple years ago - a 6 wt lined with a Rio Gold WF7F as I recall. Based on that experience, I would encourage you to upline one line weight for the smaller rivers you will be fishing.

I, too, can not speak to the bass question. But for the kind of fishing you are talking about, an intermediate line WILL NOT DO THE JOB. And I had the same problem you are describing trying to fish sinking tip lines. Just can’t stand to cast them, although maybe if I learned how to do it right, it would be okay.

I’ve been fishing streamers pretty successfully with a Class II full sinking line on a 5 wt on what I consider smaller rivers. For example, today on the Bitterroot, I could cover almost the entire width of the river by wading out only ten or fifteen feet from the bank. Since I am going to be on some bigger water soon, I’ve just ordered a Type 3 full sinking line for my 7 wt. The difference is about 2-3" sinking per second on the Class II and 4-6" per second on the Type 3. From what you are describing, my guess is that you would be better off with a Type 3 full sinking line, and go up to a 7 wt. You might even want to get a faster sinking line than a Type 3, if you are fishing fast and deep water, and need to get it right down on the bottom ( which I don’t think is all that necessary for trouts ).

The line that is “in the mail” to me is a Rio Mainstream WF7S Type 3. Retails for $39.95. It is not what is called “density compensated” but I don’t consider that a disadvantage for fishing streamers in moving water. A couple other lines I considered were an Orvis Wonderline Type 3 full sinking line and an S. A. Mastery series ( I think that was the model ) Type 3. They are both density compensated, and they both retail for around $70.00. I think they are both more than necessary, both from a science and a cost point of view. The Rio Mainstream also comes in a Type 6 if you are thinking right on the bottom.

Anyway, just some things for you to think about. And, yes, you will need to carry two spools with different lines if you want to fish surface flies and streamers on the same outing.

One final thought - you won’t need a leader for a full sinking line. Just use a suitable _X fluoro tippet about 3-5’ long. I like to use one of those braided loops on the fly line and then put a perfection loop in the butt end of the tippet for a loop to loop connection to the fly line. The fluoro tippet will give minimal additional sinking effect, and should be less visible than mono. That was my thinking, anyway. And four nice brown trouts confirmed today that it made sense.

John

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Grubb,

From my experimenting that I have done so far in the past couple weeks, I have noticed that I do need to keep the fly moving or the sinking line would get hung up a lot plus I am not real fond of it piling up around my feet where I could step on it and maybe damage it. Just about all my subsurface flies I tie up are weighted with lead under the body. I do 99.99% of my fly fishing with streamers, buggers, nymphs, flymphs, etc., and want the fly to sink, so, I may be able to get by with a WF line. I am with you on split shot. I just do not like to use it and have not used it for a couple years.

I appreciate your input on this and I thank you…

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… are another consideration. With the full sinking line, I don’t worry much about stepping on it, getting it dirty, etc. After all, it is supposed to sink.

I don’t usually put any weight on my streamers. With the right sinking line for the situation, it is not necessary to add weight to the flies. I personally think streamers present more naturally when they are not weighted.

If you are in especially fast and deep water, weight on a fly fished off a full sinking line will help get it down to the bottom. I actually fished a weighted streamer today that NightAngler1 gave me a while back and caught a couple nice fish with it. Don’t know how much the weight had to do with it.

Another point - when I am fishing streamers, I usually fish them across or down and across and use a short steady strip as the fly swings across the current. If you are planning to use a different presentation, Warren, you might need a somewhat different set up.

John

P.S. I’m wondering if this post will “cross in the mail” with something you are preparing in response to my last post ??

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Another suggestion that might help getting the fly down with a floating line is to just use a level piece of mono as was suggested for a sinking line. A thinner line will impede the sinking of the weighted fly less than a thin line. So a fly on a leader made for a single piece of a thin mono will sink faster and stay down longer than a fly on a leader with a thicker butt section. You do not necessarily need a tapered leader to turn over a weighted fly at the end of the cast since the weight and associated momentum of the weighted fly is sufficient to straighten the leader. I use a level leader with a floating line often when fishing clouser minnows for LM bass and saltwater species.

The Sage TCR 6 and 8wts are the finest fly rods I have ever used. Too much $ for me my to buy for myself. I think the 6wt is perfect for what you are doing Warren.

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John,

I was hoping you would respond to this. Thank you

My rivers here do have current and flow, but, they are not as swift as most rivers. The longer pools are rather slow moving and speed up at the ends. These pools are not fished for trout by most fly fishermen here and that is fine with me because these slower and deeper pools hold some good trout and most of the time I have them to myself while everyone else is fishing the fast water sections. My biggest rainbows and browns have come from the deeper pools. A very good friend of mine here who builds some great rods and is a Sage dealer had built the TCR 6wt for his use for bone fishing and decided that he wanted an 8wt so he built himself an 8wt TCR and put the 6wt TCR up. When I talked to him about how I was going to spend a lot of time smallmouth fishing this year he told me to come over to his place and he wanted me to yard cast the TCR he had. I fell in love with it and he sold it to me with the understanding that I could get my money back at any time and not to sell it to anyone else. I would never do that because this friend is very special to me and I would never want to do anything to destroy our friendship. He is a very good person. Unfortunately for him, he will never get this rod back! I really love it! He also suggested that I upline it with a 7wt line for the same reasons you suggested, so, that is what I will do. I just need to experiment with 7wt WF and your suggestion of either Type 2 or 3 sinking line. I plan to experiment with just using straight fluorocarbon for tippet/leader of about 4 feet and see how that works. I just do not want to be fishing above the fish. The best river of the two has water that is not really clear most of the time and that is why I thought I needed to get the streamers down to them with a sinking line. You can probably see down to about 3 feet and that is about it. The other river is very clear and you can usually see the bottom just about at any depth.

I thank you John for your input. I am really looking forward to this new experience with the fly rod. I still plan to fish for the trout, but, when the trout water gets crowded I will explore other water because I love fishing and using the fly rod.

Thanks for sharing and thanks for your fishing posts. I really enjoy your posts.

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Warren Old #art posted almost the same time I did…lol He and I both have and do fish the same waters (the James) for smallies but he has alot more experience with the fly rod for smallies than I. He lives down around my home town, I have met him and know his knowledge is well founded…:wink: Great Guy too if I may add…:slight_smile:

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Warren

I spend the summer fishing for smallmouth in the same type of water that you fish. I have come to rely on two lines. In the early summer when the river is up I fish a sinktip type V line. As you noted, smallmouth tend to stay close to the bottom and that is where I want my fly. As the river level drops I will switch over to a wf floating line and fish a 9’ 2x leader. I will also fish the sink tip in the summer if for any reason I feel my fly is not getting down deep enough. The other line I carry is an intermediate sink tip. I’ll fish this in shallower water if I am fishing streamers just below the surface. You said you weren’t interested in brand so I won’t mention it.

Dave

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You guys are confusing me…seems you are using WF synonymous with floating line…

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I just read my post again and I did not mention that my sink tip and intermediate are both weight forward lines.