Awesome Hans. Simply awesome. Perhaps “chilling” is the word.
Here’s a question I’ve always had: What is the rationale for leaving the gap of bare hook shank between the eye and thread head?
I don’t care, Catskills are simply beautiful flies whether “old school” or modern interpretations.
Hey I’ve recently been digging into some catskill history and I think the space was for the knot that was used to tie the fly to the end of your leader. I may be wrong but I’ve heard that a few times. Someone else will know better than me.
What were you refering to as awsome to hans about, just curious if he has posted any classic catskill flies because I would love to see them.
Doug
Loren,
The space was left for at least one reason that’s in the literature: It is to allow the ‘turle’ knot of the leader to be tied to the hook. I also think, and I may have read this somewhere, that the space also puts the total weight of the fly into balance(?) so that the center of gravity is in the middle of the fly.
Regardless, Mary’s flies are nuts. I’ve watched her and am amazed at her techniques and how the the tapered body begins at the butt. You have to see it close up.
Great job Hans.
Allan
Awesome Hans. Simply awesome. Perhaps “chilling” is the word.
My first question is what was this first post referring to?
With regards to the idea about the gap in the head of Catskill flies - the answer about Turle knots make the most sense to me. With any knot where part of the tippet lays on the hook shank (like a Turle knot or a Tweed clinch), the head of the fly would probably be prone to unravelling if it were not for this gap. Also I find that if I attempt to leave a gap, by definition, I will not be crowding the head of the fly.
The first post is about the latest addition to Hans’ site. He has a page of flies by Mary Dette. [url=http://danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm:cc049]http://danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm[/url:cc049]
And he has certainly been busy with flies by 4 other tiers. Great job Hans!
Rex
Sorry Guys…A-S-S u&me again!
[url=http://www.danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm:9391f]http://www.danica.com/flytier/mdette/mdette.htm[/url:9391f]
Turle knot! Of course! I don’t use one so now I won’t feel bad ommitting the gap.
Allan,
Taper begins at the but? Please elaborate? Is that not where is is supposed to begin? Color me confused.
Loren,
Of course you’re right. The taper IS supposed to begin at the butt and increase the thickness of the body (the taper) as it approaches the back of the wings. However, on Mary’s flies, she has a way of starting the body (at the butt) so that there is an almost imperceptible start and it grows from there. It’s something I have not seen in any flies, by any tyers, other then her or of tyers of her generation or her predecessors.
Take a closer look.
Regards.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 03 March 2005).]
Would anyone know if she bends the eyes down farther on those dry’s and why? They don’t look like any Mustad 94840’s that I’ve seen, or any other regular dry fly hook for that matter.
Regards,
Mark
Allen is correct. The space is for the turle knot. He is also correct in that the head being back a little will blance the fly better.
I watched her Mary hr Mom and Dad dubbing bodies many years ago to. She does it the same as her Mom did. I have also watched Harry Darbee and Art Flick dub the bodys on flies to. They all do it a little differently. Some would roll a noodle on there pants leg then take it to the hook. Some would do the same but with thread and then tie in the extra piece of thread and wind it on that way.
Kind of neet to see how others do these things. I used to do it the same way but I like many others have come to a way that works best for me. I use a little wax on the thread then I touch dub. In other words I touch the dubbing to the thread and with the wax on it just a small ammount of dubbing will stick to the thread. Buy doing it this way I have found I can get a very fine start to the noodle that will be the body. Ron
PS: Mark I have never known any of the old tiers to bend the eye of the hooks down unless they were out of shape to begin with.
[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 03 March 2005).]
Allan,
I’m not seeing it. Would you be sure to point it out to me when we gather in Roscoe next month?
I have shivers and goosebumps lookng at them…
If the reason for the gap behind the eye of a traditionally tied Catskill dry fly is to accomodate the turle knot, why isn’t it present on wet flies and nymphs from the same tiers/same time period?
slw,
Good question for which I do not have a good answer.
Loren,
I think you have to see some of her dry flies next to flies (similar make-up) of contemporary tyers.
By-the-way, anyone notice the proportions on the dries and how they conflict with the way they are defined in the books written by most of today’s ‘ex-spurts’?
Allan
Allan…yep. Bigger, sparser hackle, longer tails, wings are set farther back and, too, are longer. To name a few.
I wonder…have you ever asked Mary what she thinks about the modernized versions of these flies? I know I tie them somewhat “incorrectly” when compared, but I always wondered how much it bothered folks like Mary, if at all.
Likewise, I know of one tier who had he opportunity (and daring) to ask Vincent M. what he thought of the modern version of his thorax ties. Evidently, it did not bother him.
Loren,
That’s a good question. I hope to stop in at her shop during the Fish-In, or maybe she’ll be at the ‘Rendezvous’. If I remember, I’ll ask her and let you know.
PS. Yes to your post below! Hope she is.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 03 March 2005).]
Allan,
If she’s at the Rendezvous grab my arm when you ask…please 
. C’ya then.
Loren , She’ll probably tell you that everyone ties a little diferent. Also that some flies have different proportions than others,tailoring the fly to the natural.
As for the gap, I think when they switched to Mustads they went to even numbered hooks and a lot of patterns were in odd sizes. They kinda liked the way it looked and it became a signature of sorts. I could be totally off base here but this is something I recall in coversation.
Take care , Jim
“G” My head is spinning… 
And why not? This that, this that, this that, this that…“G” exact sience, I don’t think so…
Tim
Spelling and Grammar not subject to judgement… 
OK then, here’s one:
If they tailored the fly to the insect, then why on God’s Green Earth did they use Woodduck for the wings of a Hendrickson or Gordon Quill?
My point: Sometimes we get so caught-up in explaining and defining and pointing out who ties what the wrong way that we fail terribly at enjoying the simple fly and it’s cherished heritage.
Loren, I’m in agreement with you. I’ve sat and tied with Mary and asked her a gazillion questions.You would be suprised at how she ties some “standard” patterns ,not at all like the “ex-spurts” proport. Asked why she simply stated “to make them look more like the natural” . As for the wings on Quill Gordons " That’s the way Gordon tied them and the fish seem to like them" LOL. My remarks were more proportional than color orientated.
Another thought about the gap after the head, easier to tie on the leader .
Jim
Hey Im really enjoying this thread so far and has got me thinking.
As I said in my first post I’ve become very interested in the “traditional” catskill style of tying and have done alot of research. Most recently I had been talking with Dave Brandt and I also have gotten his DVD on tying these patterns. After studying Dave’s way of doing things and then studying the flies tied I think there is a signifigant difference between his and those of Mary Dette.
My point to all this is that I have been trying to tie catskill flies in the most traditional way I could and to mimic the legends of the catskills. And what Iam finding is that they are all different, would I be right in saying that? And what then makes a good, classical catskill dry fly?
If anyone can help me with that I’de appriciate it as I have tied over 100 light cahills in the past month tryinf to make them look “perfect”
Thanks
Doug