loop Wing Blue Winged Olive

Let’s just say for arguments sake that you take two identical dry flies. You notch the hackle about 120* on one(A) and you leave the hackle on the other intact(B). Further, let’s also say for this discussion that you observe that they both float at the same level on the water. Will cutting a notch make a difference?
Some people claim that (A)the ‘notched’ fly will land upright more often then (B)the typical dry fly that may land on its side. Another claim is that it (A)leaves a more natural or better, I’m not sure which of those words(if either) are accurate, footprint.

Anyway, this is yet another topic that will never be completely answered.

Allan

There is a spring creek fishing theory–popular with many spring creek and tailwater guides–that says “change pattern if you get multiple refusals from a regularly rising fish.”

But change to what?

If you change to any other fly, regardless the shape profile, if the new pattern has the right size and the right colors, you will increase your chances. Or so goes the theory anyway. And I believe that theory. I believe shape (up wing, spent wing, cripple, half-hatched emerger, etc) does not matter much. What does matter is size and color. In the surface film, riding high, flopped over, upside down, trailing a shuck, it doesn’t much matter. But size and color do matter. That’s what my circle of guiding buddies have always said. And so it seems to be. If a particular fish has refused your sparkle dun (or your classic Catskill pattern) 3 or 4 times in a row, switch to almost anything else…as long as the new fly has the right size and the right color. Then you’ll have a better chance of a hookup.

If you watch a thick hatch in action (that’s hard to do when you are the fisherman, and easier when you are the butler…I mean guide) you see all manner of profiles: with a shuck, without a shuck, upright, drowned and spent wing, one wing crumpled, legs still trapped in the shuck, on its side, half emerged, still largely nymph like because most of the body is still inside the shuck…in the surface film or on it. The fish don’t seem to care what it looks like. If it’s the right overall size and vaguely the right color they take it.

But if the wing or the body is substantially the wrong color or too bright or too dark, and most of all if the dimple is too big, then they will refuse. I’ve watched fish cruise up and down in repeating elliptical circuits picking off every natural dimple that comes along, regardless the profile. My fishing experience supports that too. Changing from Sparkle Dun to emerger, or to spent wing, or to no-hackle often does seem to change the response of a refusing fish. My speculation is that it was the change in profile that changed the response. And that any one of a number of new profiles would have worked just as well. That’s what they all told me when I first started working as a spring creek guide at George Anderson’s Yellowstone Angler: “Hey Sandy, don’t forget to change flies when they refuse!”

The interesting thing about that claim–if you believe it–is that it substantially discounts the importance of any one particular pattern. If you do believe that claim, then the important thing is to have a rich variety of patterns in your box, and to cycle through them, almost randomly, all day long.

I have found the footprint to be much more effective on v-notched and thorax style patterns over standard upright hackle. Especially on flat water. Also, they do tend to “land on their feet” more often than standard patterns. Enough so, that it causes me to tie and fish them more often than not. :slight_smile:

Steven,
Beautiful fly on Hans’ site. I tie something similar, but I wrap the biot the other way without the notches.
I have some flies on his site as well. He is quite a photographer. I was looking at his site recently and was amazed at how many patterns Hans has of his own. What vise do you use?

Nice of you to say. Thanks. I’d like to think I’ve improved some.

Hans’ site is amazing. More to the point, think of the collection he has! What a scam! :slight_smile:

I use a DanVise.

Well, I sort of hesitate to show this. It is not a “pretty” fly, but I like the way deer hair floats. I’ve been making dubbing loops with clipped deer hair instead of fowl hackle.
Forgive the looks, and consider how it might fish?
I do V Notch the bottom “hackles” to ensure that the fly does land upright!

size 16.

Same fly floating.

Same fly floating after more than half an hour. By now, my hackled flies would have sunk.

A PMD

Coming towards you

From Below

Very intersting post, Sandy. How does your idea concerning fly color apply to the other extreme of fly design: using unnaturally bright colors (as in your fluorescent nymphs)?

RE> “Very intersting post, Sandy. How does your idea concerning fly color apply to the other extreme of fly design: using unnaturally bright colors (as in your fluorescent nymphs)?”

Good question. The orthodox answer is that fussy “color and size matching” only matters during a heavy spring creek or tailwater hatching event.

It is true, say at Armstrong, DePuy or Nelson Spring Creek, where I used to guide upwards of 25 days a year, that a #12 Parachute Adams works about as well as congress during the Pale Morning Dun hatch. During the PMD hatch, on those spring creeks, you need a #16 or smaller fly that’s pale olive to yellow. Popular PMD patterns usually incorporate a rusty-amber-red abdomen too. But that tends to get overdone. The natural shuck has a bit of that rusty coloring. But not much. And the real mayfly is almost all olive to light yellowish olive.

The “extra-bright Edge-Bright Nymphs” concept is primarily a winter, spring and late spring technique for freestone creeks and rivers. And not for use during heavy spring creek hatches. Life is complicated. I stand by what I said above about the PMD hatch on the spring creeks. But on the Missouri, up near Great Falls in mid-October when the Blue Winged Olives get a rockin, the odd thing is that extra-bright-bodied wet flies do work well. What does not work so well, on the Missouri–during the BWO hatch, are dry flies that are too big. You do have to match the size–or go smaller, but not bigger–if you want to pick off sipping rainbows. But they’ll take Edge Bright Body soft hackles too. At least up there anyway.

Thanks, Sandy. That was very helpful.

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/fotw2/120103fotw.php

Steven, thank you for that link. I have been trying to figure out Hogan’s Yuba emerger and you have shown a new technique to try.

Byron, very interesting fly. It may not be the prettiest (I think it looks very nice actually). This may sound crazy but have you thought of fishing it like Ed Storey’s crackleback using it as a dry and emerger in the same drift? I don’t know if it would bear any fruit but as soon as I saw that PMD it made me think of trying it.

Thanks you side of the road hogging cyclist!!!
Just kidding.

I my try that. I fish cracklebacks quite a bit.

Steven, I am familiar with spinning deer hair and clipping the bottom. It is another way to make a comparadun.
My method, however, is quite different. I use the deer hair like hackle. It can be put on at after tying most of the rest of the fly. Done by making a dubbing loop. So, some of the butts are still exposed - unlike Schenk’s comparadun style. Hard to explain. I also sometimes put some cdc in the dubbing loop along with the deer hair. Gives life to the fly.

Yes. In general, the flatter position is more realistic. That is why the compardun and the no-hackle patterns are so effective. My understanding is that most mayfly duns ride with their abdomens on the water. There are a minority that elevate their abdomens and ride on their legs.

Also a lower dry fly position can be taken as a late stage emerger by the trout.

I understand that. Different way of achieving the same thing.

If the hackle situation got really bad, I’d think about using a CDC dubbing loop to make the collar.

Y’know. Is this really true? Maybe big bugs due but I’m not sure about your BWOs, Hendricksons, Sulphurs and the like.

When a mayfly lands on something hard, it’s not resting its thorax on the surface. Why should it when it lands on the water surface?

This is a question I’ve thought about a lot.

Steven,
Your guess is right, have you ever gone through the late JC’s Flies Only series here on FAOL, the photos are absolute proof!
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/fliesonly/ Do yourself a favor and read the whole thing.

Steven,
This is not a loop wing, but is hackled with a dubbing loop of dark dun cdc.

Nifty looking fly !

Thanks Flickfly. Trying different patterns for a BWO. Fishing this coming week around Yellowstone and trying to come up with something to raise a trout.

Byron,

Nice flies. I prefer the top one, dubbed body and hackle, but I’m not the trout.
Have a question, or rather an observation though. The hooks for both flies look a little long and heavy for a dry fly. What make and model?

Allan