I am pretty much the same thought. If it can go through the eye, that is why I use 6x on a #32, but I got to be honest, there was one case the catch was low till I switched to a 7X. There is a butt for every seat. 
My buddy swears that you have to fish tricos on 7X because the fish know (can see it). I seem to have as many takes with the 6X I use. Weâre both happy so I guess thatâs all that counts. As I was learning to fly fish my mentor only went as small as 6X for any fishing. I think many of our beliefs come from the people who taught us. There are no absolutes in fly fishing and I think we sometimes for that.
John, a buddy and I use orange sleeve indicators on our leaders. Not as floats just to help see them. We had so many fish trying to eat the orange indicators that he started tying beetles out of orange foam. They work like a charm when the fish are looking up during the warmer months. Donât know if itâs the orange color, but it suredoesnât hurt.
As âJohhny-Come-Latelyâ to this thread, I have a question and a couple of comments. My first question has to do with post #8 by Flygodess. Are you saying that silk lines have a core, and implying that todayâs modern lines do not? This is how I interpret what you said. I believe it is the other way around; no core in silk, and a definite core in our modern lines. It is the core in modern lines that make the needle knot and the âknotlessâ connection, developed by Dave Whitlock and Joe Robinson, possible.
With respect to the Shimizaki tool, it appears to be nothing more than a âknockoffâ of the tool used by Whitlock and Robinson, a simple pin-vise, for doing their knotless leader connection, and more than just a plain sewing needle for the âneedle knotâ, which has been highly advocated by Gary Borger for at least 20 years.
John, I admire your bravery for attempting to slay such a sacred cow as fish seeing tippets vs drag as reasons for refusals, as well as the necessity of long and fine leaders! I attempted this same thing some time back on a different forum in response to a totally ridiculous statement that had beenposted, and was nearly tarred and feathered! I agree 100% with what you have said so far, and which position I base my background in the science, especially fisheries biology, on.
I too endorse furled leaders!
Cheers.
I do 95% of my fishing with a 5â5" olive furled leader and 4-6â of 5-7x flourocarbon tippet. When fishing tricoâs and midges, I most often use the 7X flouro (Maxknot). I very rarely go larger than 5X for trout.
All my connections are loop/loop. I use a simple fishermans loop for my tippet loop. When I go larger than 5X on tippet I use a double fishermans loop.
Ralph
On rivers I put a 4 lb fluoro tippet on a 5â to 7â furled leader. Flies vary in sizes and that chart goes right out the window. LOL
I agree, Iâm a little off of the traditional chart as well. Rule of thumb for dries, using flouro?
5x: #6-#10
6X: #12-#16
7X: #18-#24
I use fluoro for everything.
Being very open minded, I tried fluoro. I had the same reaction that Tom expressed in his article. It didnât do anything for me that mono wonât do. Being the thrifty type, I stopped using it.
I still have some on the spools I bought quite some time ago. As I understand it, or maybe misunderstand it, that stuff will last forever out in the sunlight, water, and weather. No telling how long it will last in a cool, dark, dry place in my pack.
John
I like the smaller diameter to strength ratio. And when nymphingâŚespecially when patterns fall below #14âŚI find Flouro to make a huge difference.
Absolutely. Smaller diameter, for stronger strength. Plus the fact if goes sub surface. I have done tests and I am a believerâŚso is the two gentlemen that were with me.
Iâm in the same boat. I tried fluoro, still have some. For the price; it doesnât offer enough advantage/benifit over mono to justify 3x $$$.
⌠it depends. On a bunch of different things, including what kind of water you are on, what kind / size flies you are using, and what kind of fishies you are targetting.
In my case, the cost is secondary, but I simply donât need fluoro for fishing big flies ( both dries and nymphs ) in freestone streams and rivers.
If I was fishing the same kind of water you are, Joni and Ralph, for the same kind of fishies ( and neither one of you qualified your position with that kind of information ), I might think fluoro would give me some advantage.
All things being equal, fluoro may give a slight edge in presentation to the angler who needs it. :evil:
John
A bit smug, but thatâs okay, but that is how you seem to roll these days:evil:. I fish same water as you, just different places. I fish Trout, Grayling, Brookies, Golden. Plus I fish Bass (LM SM WB) I fish Carp, Crappy Bluegill. I fish Stillwater, Rivers, Creeks and Streams, and at times puddles.
I like fluoro. I like 5â to 7â leaders.
Do I NEED fluoroâŚabsolutely not. Do I need to fish high end gear, absolutely not. Way to stereo type.
Just teasing you two a bit is all. I guess the :evil: didnât make that obvious ??
John
So was IâŚnote my :evil:
Besides, I would think a furled leader would be more an aid then the type of tippet.
As I said, I do fish #30âs and I am not one to try 7 or 8 and that 6X fluoro threads nicely in those micros.
On the other had, the big bad Carp, I am able to use 8 lb on them.
I am heading to the 10,000 lakes and streams this weekend. Should be fun.
I target mainly trout, primarily in limestone streams. The occasional spring creek. But I prefer it as well for poppers and bluegill spiders also. For the better abrasion resistance. I have fished a few streams in the winter, where the difference has been Flouro x10 and Mono zero. Shocked me. The 2 people fishing flouro were the only folks gettign strikesâŚall else was identicle, down to the indicator depth. And when the folks fishing mono switched, the strikes came. That was fishing beadhead nymphs. Itâs less visibleâŚmy best guess.
In the defense of the nail knot, hereâs the last sentence in one of the many places where you can find Leftyâs description, âthen trim the tag end flush with the coils.â That by itself eliminates the hang up on the guides problem mentioned. I trim both the tag end of the leader plus the tag end of the line âflush,â as he says. That being so I generally only use it on the stream preferring a whipped loop, or the no knot, super glue, connection that Joni mentions when I have time and tools. I also firmly believe that trying to catalog the multitude of situations where folks choose leaders, tippets and such is nicely summed up with her statement about seats and butts.
By the way have any of you tried tying a needle knot in or an intermediate, clear sink line? Or for that matter a nail knot? I found the braided loop or a whipped loop to be the solution for itâs lack of core.
Above I read, âDrag is caused by the leader / tippet pulling or pushing a fly off course of a fully natural drift of that fly with the current. The thickness of the leader / tippet has nothing to do with that happening.â Interesting statement but it does seem to fly in the face of physics. Drag is due to the water interacting with the tippet/leader/line combo. Big heavy material, much drag, very light material less drag, thicker material, much more drag, thinner material, much less drag. Am I missing something? A fly line and leader butt is thick by design and thinner tippet is one way of reducing drag based on diameter alone. Another reason for longer tippets is to allow or to create some deliberate slack where the leader doesnât lay out straight but rather allows or causes the tippet to lie down curved, etc thereby allowing the tippet a longer float before it straightens and produces drag. Finer tippet, by the way, is harder for the fish to sense and see, but again thatâs nothing but physics talking!
As for FC, again physics to the rescue, it is more dense and more closely matches the optic properties of the water so reason tells us that it might just give a slight edge when it come to a fish seeing it, not to mention the other factors mentioned above such as itâs sinkabilty. Other reasons folks, âremember butts and seats,â use it is for itâs abrasion resistance. Add all this together and it?s easy to see why many Tarpon anglers like a Shock Tippet made of 60-120lb FC.
As for the Perfection Loopâit has itâs place but beware as itâs pitifully weak and not to be used with your class tippet, or as most folks say your âtippetâ as it weakens it this immensely. The Improved Clinch is almost in this same boat rating at around 60-70% of tippet strength when you could be getting 90-100% with another knot.
Finally getting to the x factor, the Orvis chart gives recommendations and remember, âbutts and seats,â and it is a good chart and certainly you can deviate but my bet is that itâs close to spot on given that folks ranging from Lefty Kreh, to Ritz, McLaine and many other experts with hundreds of years experience is where that chart comes from. Say you use the Trilene Knot for most of your tying the fly on. How small a hook eye can you get your tippet two times through? Good discussion folks and the article was certainly a bit of meat to chew on!
⌠to thickness regarded the thickness of furled leaders, not mono leaders. That is what you are missing, Chuck. Thread furled leaders are more supple at the thickest part of the butt than 5X tippet mono leaders are at the thin end of the 5X tip.
Here are some pix posted on an earlier thread about the relative suppleness of thread furled leaders and mono tippet -
Rio powerflex 6X tippet.
Danville 210 FlyMaster Plus thread furled leader butt.
Danville 210 FlyMaster Plus thread furled leader tip.
The suppleness is the key - instead of having several feet of relatively stiff mono, you have several feet of material ( wet thread ) more supple than most of the tippet most people use, and during the drift there is generally slack in that supple section of the furled leader, so it is pretty much like having air between the end of the fly line and the actual tippet material.
John
P.S. The thread furled leader was dry when the pix were taken, they are more supple when wet.
What everyone needs to remember is that this is just fishing. Fun, yes, relaxing, I hope so, world changing, not a chance. If you like flurocarbon and beleive itâs better, then use it, but remember, others may not share your view point, and thatâs just fine. Remember, this is just fishing. Do you like furled leaders, great, use them and be happy. But remember, others may not share your views and thatâs just fine. Remember, this is just fishing. And one final thought - for several centuries people caught fish on horsehair leaders, and then they caught fish on gut leaders, and many of us caught lots of fish - even record fish - on nylon leaders that would make most of the people that use the modern stuff shake their heads in disbelief. The point is that there is room in fly fishing for the person that finds satisfaction in making and using furled leaders, there is a place in fly fishing for people that use tapered, knotless leaders and for those that prefer to 'roll their own." I canât repeat it often enough - remember this is just fishing.
⌠there are situations where a thread furled leader would probably be my last choice of leader. But I donât seek those situations out and seldom encounter them.
For example - trying to hit a spot 6" above where a trout has been regularly rising for naturals. For that situation, I would likely opt for a tapered mono leader or hand tied tapered mono leader, especially if there was any breeze.
There are so many variables in fly angling, that I think it is appropriate to qualify any given preference or position with some information about the situation one is referring to. And I try to remember, but donât always, to remind people that I only fish for nearsighted, colorblind, dumb, and starving fishies.
Also, thread furled leaders have some real disadvantages, and it is not surprising, nor discouraging, that a lot of folks that I give them to donât like them and donât use them after trying them out.
Now, about that gut thing âŚ
John