Leader-calc. how much BS can FF take

Fishing A Learning Experience, Pass it On.
1

I’m 58 and spent my life FF lakes with my dad for fish we eat. Sport never entered into the equation. We built our own leader for bass/crappie and never thought twice about the ‘science’. I just got through looking at ‘LEADERCAC’ and this has to be the biggest load of BS i’ve ever read in my life.
My dad, being a person who flyfished and saw what happened when he built a bad leader spent his last days talking fish with me, about leaders. He used a 5wt steel truetemper rod with a level flyline. (not W/f or D/T) He caught fish after fish on his system, that I find it reasonable to accept what he said was true.
IF THE TIPPET WORKS THE FLY AND THE LEADER GETS IT OUT THERE, THEN IT’S RIGHT. Damn, now that’s to simple for something that leader calc has you breaking down into tying 6" sections of line to the tippet.

We looked at the formulas of ‘LEADERCALC’ and here were his comments;

You don’t need to get that taper to make a good cast…“somebodies makin money somehow handing inexperienced FF bad info”…Then he went on to think the manufacturers of tapered leaders have fabricated this system to complicate FF and have people throw their hands in the air and just buy their friggin tapered leaders.
HERE’S THE LINE I LIKED BEST;
COMPARE…make your own leader, and count from 100 the bad casts…FF’ermen selling a product say “the FORMULA was wrong”
Compare…the bad casts from 100 on a manufactured tapered line…crap you still can’t cast…time to take some lessons…IT HAS TO BE YOU!!!

This line of thought goes from every aspect of the ‘INDUSTRY’ that sells leaders.

Hey, my old man was a drunk, even though he caught fish on a flyrod everytime he went out what the heck could he know…right???
Here was his first comment on ‘LEADERCALC’, How can you segment 10 line dimensions down to a taper without calculating in the effects of the “ALL THOSE” knots affecting the entire system of tapering down…YOU CAN’T!!! they affect the dynamics so much that 5 pcs of line in 6" increments are just plain idiotic.
He documented the butt/midsection and tippet as 3 pcs…never more than 8’…with the butt and mid-section remaining the same for the set-up…the tippet always changable for the fly weight. I guess this is where experience was required.

WHAT??? EXPERIENCE…BS, A new fly fisherman should be able to buy a book and have the exact guidelines give to him so he catches fish…

Today being the drunkin FF my dad was, I sit, cast and catch fish…all by feel.
My 8’, 3 piece leaders turnover and get me to the fish with ease.

How we have complicated one of the most beautiful things in the world to make a dollar astounds me…then I see how screwed up this world is and can understand how stunningly stupid people are who have taken something so simple and ruined it.
Go back to the basics of FF;
Make a 2 or 3 piece leader, cast it out for a month or 2. see what it’s doing and if you don’t catch fish…MODIFY it… This is the true art of casting a flyrod to catch fish. Good things take time to happen, sometimes we are lucky enough to have people pass on what tey know for no reason other than the love of what they do.
If you’re not as lucky as I was, EXPERIMENT with the 60/20/20 method and make a few years of mistakes before you can say…OH LORD, I UNDERSTAND!!!

2

It has to be complicated, and constantly becoming more so, to justify all of the things the marketers want you to buy. Never underestimate the power of people to take something fairly simple and complicate it to either justify their beliefs or sell you something.

Welcome to the board. Nice to know I am not the only cynic around. S

3

Sounds like someone need to go fishing… sorry to hear about your dad…

be safe

4

If you question really is, “How much B.S. can fly fishing take?” the answer is, “Quite a bit”.
Consider that this is the perceived to the the blending on money and pride by many. That means available $$$. That means lots of advertising. That means lots of B.S. Kansas feedlots worth of it…

Ed

5

My old boss thought I should be award a special recognition. This was called the “Full of It” award. When I come up to TN I will have bring it along so you guys will see I have my own and don’t need any more.

Full of it award.jpg
Full of it award.jpg999×756 85.2 KB

That’s exactly what it is, permanently perserved in good coat of lacquer.

6

I’m into furled leaders, just for the reason they allways work fine, doesn’t matter how much BS you put into it. And yes, i did put a lot of BS into it, but only for fun. I don’t use any of the FF threads for it, just Guetermann overlocking thread. Still don’t understand why something available in about every store has to triple in price when you buy it in a FF store.

Karel

7

In defense of fly shops, its all speciality shops, not just flyfishing shops, go to a golf pro shop to check me out, that have to raise the price to make a profit. Even if your business is the most fun in the world, if you fail to make a profit you will eventually lock the doors and go out of business. Walmart makes a little profit on millions and millions of items, a one shot fly shop cannot make it that way.

8

Sure, but you can also fail to make a profit if you don’t sell because of a high price. On the other hand i think the real specialty products (flies for example) are way too cheap to make a profit. Calculating the price of materials and time needed to produce you’ll get a very low salary for your labour.

9

I agree that perhaps we make things more difficult than we should. But, fly fishing, tying and rod building aren’t static hobbies–they are ever evolving because of new and sometimes better ideas. Remember the wheel, fire, etc.? I say to each his own. Every fly we tie could be a version of the hare’s ear in different sizes and colors, but that would be very boring. As hobbyists we like to have fun and create. If that’s your idea then I say fine. If you just like to keep it simple that’s fine too.
Bruce

10

Money talks and BS walks…I walk a lot…

11

I remember attending a presentation class when with Holiday Corporation; the general manager of a new Embassy Suites hotel was explaining how to make the maximum profit from his hotel. There were two intersecting lines one was maximum sales for $0 income; the other was maximum dollars income at Zero sales, you want to be at maximum sales at maximum price; Solving the intersection points of those lines is a puzzle every business must solve to make the most from their business.

A good fly shop will also provide you with answers to questions that you can’t get at the sports good department of most big box stores. You pretty much know they will have the particular fly you need in stock, or they may tie a few for you while you wait. You go to Walmart you can pretty much have what they have hanging on the wall in a plastic blister pack, tied by someone in Guatemela, Mexico, Taiwan or somewhere a long way from where you are and good luck with finding someone to show you the sporting good section much less knowing what the trout are taking on any local body of water. That said, I would like for them to be more affordable, I just understand why they must charge what they do, their kids get hungry just like mine.

12

Believe me. I work for a large marketing company. FF is no different than any market. The main reason for any company’s existance is making profit. They can say and present their product in any way they pleased as long as it’s not breaking any laws. It is up to a consumer to decide. Personally I do not believe in a single word of commercial advertising. NOT A SINGLE ONE!!!. When something catches my eye or if I need something I use internet to do some research before spending more than 10 bucks on anything…

That can be very long process yes but in the end if something does not work out you have only yourself to blame. It took me 14 months to buy a tent…:oops:

This leader calc smells like BS and I have not even heard of it… before this post.:smiley:

Furling rules anyway…:wink:

13

Making it ‘fun’…

Few of us fly fish (FF?) so we can eat. Most of us do this for the fun. And, while it would be nice, few of us get to fly fish as often as we would like. The press of family, jobs, just living our lives makes it hard sometimes to get away for a day, much less several days at a time. Add in the costs associated with getting there, and you can undersand what I mean.

Yet we can be involved with this wonderful hobby/addiction in other ways that don’t require the investment in time or money that a ‘trip’ requires. A few hours in the tying room/garage/mancave/whereever you go to relax can be spent tying flies, making up leaders, building rods, cleaning and organizing gear, etc. Some spend the time blogging about fly fishing, or posting to boards such as this one, developing fly fishing related web sites, or even trying to make a bit of income from their hobby.

While we all know viscerally that a simple leader and a simple fly will do the job, many folks like to be creative. Where’s the fun in tying only wooly buggers? I can catch lots of fish with a level leader, but it’s fun to try different combinations. Furled, custom tied, storebought, the fact is, they all work just fine. The more time folks have to play around with things like this, the more complicated it will become. That’s just human nature. Look at the flies out there with 30 to 50 ‘steps’ to tie them. Leaders with six sections pale in comparison. But it’s still only for fun.

THEN, you get the folks that have the desire to teach, inspire, influence, convince (whatever you want to call it) others to do it ‘their way’. My dad did it this way, so that is 'best, because he caught fish…my guide at (insert famous river here) did it this other way, so that HAS to be the right way…I’ve been fly fishing for (insert large number of years here) and MY way is clearly the best…I’ve worked it out mathmaticaly, and if you take the time to do it from the table I’ve carefully developed and posted on the internet, you will have amazing results. THIS is surely the only ‘good’ way…I’ve always just used (insert fly, level leader, rod brand, store bought whatever, here) and it works just fine, so you should just do it the way I do…the only reason 'they (insert who ever the ‘they’ is that you are referring to, or leave it just the nefarious ‘they’) do anything is to bilk us poor fly fishermen out of our hard earned money…

The truth is, just about everything out there works for someone. Some folks like complicated. Some folks prefer simple. And many of us aren’t consistent. I know that’s a shock, but you can find guys that carefully calculate the exact leader sections to use for particular waters and presentations while using only three flies, ever. Or the guy that has seventy-five bluegill flies but always fishes with a 6 foot piece of 8 pound mono as a leader.

None of it matters much, though. This is just fly fishing, not life or death. Nothing involved with fly fishing will matter much in the history of man. While it may seem critically important to you now, in a hundred years no one will care what leader or flies you used.

It’s ALL just fun, and there is plenty of room for any method you want to use.

Buddy

14

So are you saying yor full of BS Warren :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

15

Has this struck anyone else as funny?
:slight_smile:

Ed

16

You’re being bad Ed D.

17

Buddy , that is one of the better posts I have read…that’s just IMHO,

18

BS has all but killed the Furled Leader Forum. Once the Rocket Scientists get thier hand on something that requires a “Formula” they go nuts and start killing trees developing Spread Sheets!! The KISS method in byond them.

19

concurr with all the above, too much rocket science keeps me off the water

20

Following your logic Jack, we would all still be driving Model T’s, and crank starting them! Let’s see; they had no heaters, no air conditioning; hand operated windshield wipers, and top speed of about 45 mph. By the way, did drive a Model A, and have ‘crank started’ them; and Chickens!

aged_sage