For optimal turnover…What is the most important for mono or furled leaders?
Diameter of the leader butt?
Stiffness of the leader butt?
Weight of the leader?
Other?
I use them, but not for any of the reasons you listed. I use a butt section simply because I can tie a blood knot in the field faster and better than I can tie a nail knot.
I don’t tie the nail knot as well so I tie in the butt section at home under optimal conditions, when I need to change leaders I can snip the old on off at the butt section and tie the new one in by splicing mono-to-mono with a simple blood knot.
I use stiff mono like ‘amnesia’ brand or I recycle the butt of an old tapered leader. I start with about 18" and replace it when it get snipped to under 8". I try to remove the same length of butt from the new leader so the overall leader length (and hopefully the physics) is uneffected.
For a furled leader I don’t think it matters much what the butt extension is made of, it’s going to unroll no matter what. For tapered mono leaders I try to use the same diameter or one tippet size larger.
Duckster,
This one is easy, since it’s just physics.
The ONLY thing about the butt section that effects ‘turnover’ is the ‘stiffness’ of the butt section.
It’s diameter or tensil strength is just a by product of the stiffness.
Ideally, we want a butt section that is spiderweb thin, tapers to invisible at the tippet, won’t break under any reasonable amount of pull, and is stiff as piano wire in the butt area ONLY during the cast and as the fly turns over, then becomes supple as a breeze while fishing.
In the ‘real’ world, you want a butt section that is at least as stiff as your fly line.
Good Luck!
Buddy
I also use the butt for ease of leader change. However, I use a piece about 8" long and tie a loop in the end of the butt. All my leaders then get a loop in their butt sections. To change I just loop them together. I use maxima as my butt sections, 20-40 lbs depending on the weight of the fly line. Most of the lines I buy acually have these peices already tied to them. I find the loops save me from cutting the fly line numerous times during a season but I do change them at the start of every season.
Buddy,
The ONLY thing about the butt section that effects ‘turnover’ is the ‘stiffness’ of the butt section.
Sorry, but beg to differ. Stiffness has nothing to do with turnover, mass does.
If it required stiffness, then the super-limp furled leaders would not turn over worth beans, don’t you think? 
Cheers,
Hans W
Keep it coming guys…but Kengore & Flyrodde… what I’m after is what characteristics you use in choosing that butt section or the butt of the leader itself.
I use maxima because of its stiffness and abrasion resistance. I only use the butt section on the flyline for ease of leader change. I have not found that using an extra butt section or not using one helps or hinders my leaders turnover.
I don’t use furled leaders so I can’t comment on them. But for mono leaders I like to start with the tippet I am going to use. I then start building the leader backward using incriments of about .002 to .003 to the length of my leader. Ending with my butt section of the leader slightly smaller in diameter than my fly line. So for optimal turnover of a mono leader, IMO, diameter is the most important characteristic.
Hhhhmmmm…two for diameter/mass…one for stiffness.
I once rep’d for a leader material company out of Otisville, Michigan known for ‘hard’ nylon. At the time I used a very stiff and large diameter butt section on my tapered leaders which I tied myself. Later on I switched to tapered mono leaders and just tie them directly to my flyline. I tie a perfection loop in the end of the leader if it doesn’t already come with one and a Castwell knot on the end of the line. The knot is easy to back off if I need to change a leader, which would be very rare.
Hans,
You’re right.
I didn’t think this one all the way through.
Sorry, Duckster, but I whiffed this one.
I was thinking in two dimensions, not three.
Energy transfer has to do with mass, and energy transfer causes turnover. Stiffness figures in, as ‘stiffer’ materials transfer energy more efficiently, but there is more to the equation than I had figured…
Which is probably why my leader puddles on most casts…stiff butt section, but my ‘finish’, as far as energy goes, sucks…
Again, my apologies and it’s three for mass…so use a lead core leader butt section…
Good Luck!
Buddy
Perhaps still old school, but I tend to use green “amnesia” for the same reasons cited by Kengore. Quick and easy to tie a blood knot and you have the added benifit of the colored section of amnesia acting somewhat as a highly visible indicator for detecting what is happening on the little end of the tippet.
Maybe I’m missing something, but I always thought it was stiffness, as in the fly line and butt should bend with the same arc if put into a loop… similarly the step downs in a tapered knotted or furled leader… No?
peregrines
Not to risk a war with the authorities here but(t)…
I always figured things worked best for me with a leader butt 2/3 the dia. (or therabouts) of the fly line and the stiffer mat’l. in that smaller dia. worked the best, getting progressively smaller…
This lead to Maxima Chameleon as others have found out. Who am I to argue?
Peregrines you’re correct. And I feel that same principle regarding the flexing of each progressive leader section with the adjoining portion, as it gets smaller, should follow suit.
That said, I’ve run into a fellow in SW Wis who made some really good leaders out of crummy old standard mono’s from the junk heap in the WallWorld shops etc.
He tied some very nice leaders, stepped down every 18" to a foot or so (towards the tippet end) but the butt section of his leaders were considerably thicker (heavier…more “mass” then??) than my Maxima.
I prefer the Max. Chameleon.
Jeremy.
Hhhmmm…on a quick count it may be 4 stiffness…3 mass…
Is it correct …mass=diameter…where does weight fit in?
For the stiffness folks…how do you explain the good turn over of furled leaders?
For the furled leader folks…how important is it to match the diameter of the leader butt to the line tip?
I haven’t used enough Furled leaders to have an opinion on them yet and still go by the builders recommendation. The Blue Sky leaders are marked for which line wt they were made for.
No one has mentioned braided leaders which are quite limp throughout. I would say their casting qualities are due to mass. I like braided btw.
Now here’s the fly in the ointment.George Harvey and Joe Humphrey leaders are stiff butt limp tippet for the way they present the fly with s curves in the tippet.I tie these up but there lousey in strong wind. Now Lefty Kech proposed that the leader butt be the same stiffness to the fly line others are now calling for limp throughout.Still other are designing leaders similar to wf lines. So here we go again it is what you want the leader to do for you to which leader system you choose to use.
Then you get into leaders for lakes, streams, rivers, salt water, LMB Bass. Each water type and species of fish or type of fly will call for a different leader.
Try tieing up different types of leaders and find the one that works best for your type of fishing.
Tom
I tried the braided leaders years ago. Loved the turnover, hated the water spray. I’ve heard that they have since fixed that problem. Anybody still make them?
you can make your own, and orvis still makes them. I don’t know if anyone else still does. I also like them do a degree but they don’t cover all my fishing situations.
Flat mono butt leaders were all the rage in the 1980’s. They offered a limper butt section compared to the traditional hard mono which was used by everybody. The hype at the time was; because they were limp they offered tighter loops.
Then you had the braided butt leaders that did everything until somebody started complaining about spray which never seemed to bother me since I also get spray from my line, fly, leader knots and line/leader junction.
To solve that problem we got the Orvis Turnover leaders of about 5 or more years ago that were mono coated with PVC. They were limp like braided without the spray. I liked those a lot.
Now we have the ‘new again’ furled leaders which also do everything and don’t spray. :roll:
How about the Orvis Hy Float leaders that feature a hard mono butt that FLOATS! I use these on small rough streams when dry fly fishing and they do improve pick-up for these situations but they are mighty shiny! :shock:
Which brings us back to hard mono…
No matter what the butt material; stiff, limp, braided, flat, furled, or PVC coated; my regular sized flies turn over just fine. The only “latest and greatest” leader material I haven’t tried is gut.
I personally find leader length and tippet length as they relate to fly size to be more critical to turnover than the diameter or stiffness of butt material. I use braided butt or furled leaders for all of my dry fly fishing and for the big stuff; I stick with stiff mono and use a butt diameter that gets bigger as the line size goes up.
It seems to work for me regardless.