Lead Sinkers Issue Again

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
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On Valentine’s Day the EPA must respond to the latest petition to have EPA regulate/ban lead fishing gear under the Toxic Substances Control Act.
I have listed the site below where you can look at the petition. It has a good table of contents so you can skip to the section(s) that interest you.
If you want to know what “science” they have behind the petition, I have copied below the petition’s “statistics” and data. Their approach is that buying new lead means that the same amount of lead was lost.
I’m not ranting here, but howmany shot sinkers do you lose a day? Maybe one or none? Even cork fishing how many do you lose? Who created these loss figures? No one. i know crappie fishermen that have like a gazillion lead head jigs because they always think a new size or color will make the fish jump on the hook.
Oh, well. Let’s see what Valentines brings.
Another thought, are loons just dumb, and if not, why aren’t storks and cranes and herons and ducks in the deep south dying in droves?

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/TSCA_sinker_petition.pdfAccurate quantitative information on how much lead is entering the environment from lead fishing weights and tackle sinkers is not available, but approximations can be made from the quantities of lead fishing tackle sold in the U.S., assuming most or many sinkers are purchased to replace those lost while fishing (Scheuhammer et al 2003), and from studies of sinker and tackle loss by anglers. Roughly 4,000 metric tons of lead fishing sinkers are sold annually in the U.S. (Scheuhammer et al 2003; USGS 2008). Studies of sinker and tackle loss rates among recreational anglers vary - a variety of factors can influence whether lead will be lost, including the type of fishing activity, the location of the activity, the time of year, and the skill of the angler. Fishers lost 2-3 sinkers per angling day in the United Kingdom (Bell et al. 1985). Anglers in the U.S. reported losing
0.18 sinkers/hour, and 0.23 hooks and lures/hour, with 2% of anglers reporting losing a fish with tackle still attached (Duerr 1999). Radomski et al. (2006) reported average loss rates on Minnesota lakes of 0.0127 lures per hour, 0.0081 large sinkers per hour, 0.0057 split shot sinkers per hour, 0.0247 jigs per hour, and 0.0257 hooks per hour; [SIZE=3]
for a estimated total of one metric ton of lead lost for 6,000 anglers in 2004.
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Over how many thousand square miles of water? As Mark Twain wrote, “There a lies, damn lies and statistics.”

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I guess I’ll have to pull my three or four metric tons of lead-head jigs ( from a long ago era) out of storage and skew their therom regarding “lost” lead. This, like many such “studies” relies heavily on making the statistics read in favor of the statistician keeping his/her job. In MY job, the facts must be much more obvious to collect my due.

Mark
PS: I’m not totally against “statistics”. Without the study of, how else could we know approximately how many morons occupy our mudst?

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Figures don’t lie…but liars figure

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The US Government’s own study by the U.S. Geological Survey, National Wildlife Health Center shows lead death rate of 3.5% on a study of over 300 dead loons collected from 9 states: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine, New York, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, California and Alaska.

The U.S. Geological Survey, National Wildlife Health Center survey is also from 5 cooperating institutions including Massachussets, the home of Tufts. One of the authors of this report is the Biodiversity Institute in Gorham, ME. They are experts in toxins especially mercury.

The BRI and the other 4 study centers including Madison, WI. signed onto the report with the primary author, U.S. Geological Survey, National Wildlife Health Center. The report is below.

Lead Toxicity in Waterbirds

Read the following data on lead and loons in Minnesota.

http://www.jeffsundin.com/Article_Lead_Sinkers_vs_Loons.htm

Loons populations are not in danger and are actually growing. The same is true in Wisconsin. Loons, eagles, osprey and trumpeter swans are increasing. If lead was threatening these populations, they should be decreasing.

Eagles and Osprey

http://www.northland.edu/loon-population-survey.htm

Loon Project

Swans

What limits populations of these birds in not lead, it is the availability of habitat.

The percentage death rate from led is a out the same as from C & R fishing. The reason that trout populations do not decrease is that the death rate from C&R does not sufficiently large when viewed in comparison to the other causes of death.

What is important is whether the population of these target species is healthy. To add the expense of fishing without affecting the overall population is non sensical.

You will hear the no lead advocates talk out of both sides of their mouth. They will say that tons and tons of lead are lost; and in the next sentence, say that the cost to replace this lead with tin, tungsten, or bismuth will not be expensive. You cannot have it both ways. If a lot of lead is being lost, the cost will be great. If the cost is small like they say, then there must not be a lot of lead being lost.

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More trumped up nonsense from the enviro crowd. They sure give Conservationists a bad name.

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Uncle Jesse wrote:
“Over how many thousand square miles of water? As Mark Twain wrote, “There a lies, damn lies and statistics.””

I would think lost lead would tend to be concentrated in the best fishing spots. I used to fish the tailwaters of the Big Bend dam near Chamberlain, SD. When the river was very low you could find thousands of lost lead jigs and fishing sinkers, many of them corroded. I would like to see a study defining just how much lead enters the water from such a source and how it affects wildlife of all types downstream.
Many counties in Europe have banned lead fishing sinkers for decades. I would like to know if this has helped, harmed or had no effect on their wildlife populations.

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I had another thought regarding a simple, inexpensive experiment anybody with a little time and money to devote to the project could do involving two aquariums. Set up two aquariums with some fish that spawn on sand or gravel making sure that EVERYTHING is a close to identical in both aquariums as humanly possible with one exception. Put some old, corroded sinkers in the sand or gravel of one aquarium and then once the fish have spawned and the fry hatched compare the two. I would be willing to bet that the fry in the aquarium that had the lead in it wouldn’t do nearly as well as those reared in the lead free environment.

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Guys, what’s the big deal? You are spending big bucks on rubber soled waders to replace felt. How much do you spend on tackle, travel, etc each year? Is a few bucks more to switch from lead to tin or tungsten going to make that much difference? I fish a lot in NH, which banned lead some time ago, and I switched to tungsten putty, and find I actually like it better than lead shot. My home state of MA has gone to a lead ban this year as well. I just don’t see how this is such a problem.

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No big deal at all if it’s warranted, needed or serves a purpose.:confused: So far no one has show it to be warranted, needed or serving a purpose.:?:

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You would lose the bet… Lead is not “bioavailable” in the form present in the test you propose.

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The problem with banning things or activities without first proving that there is a valid reason for it, is that it then becomes too easy just to ban activities and things just because someone else doesn’t like it or thinks there might be a problem with it in the future. I’m not for or against banning lead but I would want it done for good reason. I see too many lobby groups in Canada that get their way just because they know how to make a lot of noise. The spring bear hunt in Ontario is an example. Wether you liked the spring bear hunt or didn’t like it was your choice and opinion. However it was banned on wrong information, emotion and statistics (wrongfully used). Those that had an opinion used the system to get something others enjoyed and used properly banned. I am reminded of an article that I read, about a fishing derby (catch and release) that was banned in Germany because it was demeed to be cruel and inhumane to the fish. Start with lead (without cause??) and what’s next?? Rant over. Thanks for the ear.

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Hap,
I take your answer to mean that unless an animal swallows or otherwise has lead somehow put into it’s body no ill effects will be observed. In other words a fish could spawn directly on a pile of old corroded lead sinkers and nothing unusual would happen.

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Elemental lead is not an issue with critters. Lead is very stable and usually the elements alloyed with it leave long before lead. It is more noble than most stainless steels, nickle silver, silicon bronze, and lots of other metals we immediately think of as very corrosion resitant. And it does it without issues like the maintaining an oxide coat which allows SS and aluminum to sneak up a few places on the chart.

Fumes given off when melting lead are a different thing and are very dangerous, but not lead in solid form…

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Here are the specific gravities of some metals in comparison to lead.

Tungsten 19.0
Tantalum 16.6
Lead 11.342
Silver 10.5
Molybdenum 10.2
Bismuth 9.781
Copper 8.89
Nickel 8.85
Monel 8.80
Cobalt 8.71
Iron 7.87
Tin 7.29
Zinc 7.14

Tin is 2/3 the specific gravity of lead. You would need 50% more tin to equal the weight of lead but you would also have a greater volume that would decrease the sink rate even if the weights were identical. In addition, where density per volume is critical as in wrapping lead wire in fly construction, I have not found anything yet that is the equal of cheap lead wire. Silver wire would be the closest but it is not as malleable.

Tungsten is heavier than lead but it is not malleable and must be compounded with a carrier substance that lower’s the net specific gravity if it is to be used as a substitute for split shot. I have seen no comparisons of the net specific gravity of tungsten compounds compared to lead.

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I could lose a 1000 lbs a day of split shot and it wouldn’t matter one bit!!! The enviro crowd would count it as that much more lead in the water - only one thing it’s tin split shot!!! All my sinkers under 1/2 oz are all NON lead!!! My jig heads I’ve spent $100’s of dollars buying Powder Paint which seals them up and they don’t leach any lead.

Anglers in the U.S. reported losing
0.18 sinkers/hour, and 0.23 hooks and lures/hour, with 2% of anglers reporting losing a fish with tackle still attached (Duerr 1999). Radomski et al. (2006) reported average loss rates on Minnesota lakes of 0.0127 lures per hour, 0.0081 large sinkers per hour, 0.0057 split shot sinkers per hour, 0.0247 jigs per hour, and 0.0257 hooks per hour;
for a estimated total of one metric ton of lead lost for 6,000 anglers in 2004.

How many of the recreational anglers gave the enviro’s faulty info for the above figures??? or how much did THEY change to suit their needs???
“The US Government’s own study by the U.S. Geological Survey, National Wildlife Health Center shows lead death rate of 3.5% on a study of over 300 dead loons collected from 9 states: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine, New York, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, California and Alaska.”

This looks like the sentence from the original report when it first started!!! What they don’t list!! is that this was over an 11 year period - so 3.3 birds a year over 9 states!!! Lot different than 3.5%.

So yeah figures have been changed to suit peoples reports. They say switch over to other materials - tungsten??? you have a blast furnace that will melt at over 6100 degrees or the molds that won’t dis-integrate when you pour into them?? tin - $19 a lb when I checked last week and doesn’t weigh as much as lead. The list goes on and on.

I hope they finally pass a law that gives us anglers a fair ruling. Their have been too many lies from the enviro’s.

Cycler68 - only one flaw in your test suggestion. Lead is a naturally leaching material in the environment. I find it almost amusiing that they bitch and complain about our lead lures but they want to relax the Clean Air and water act’s so that companies can dump even more **** in the rivers and streams - which they’ve done for years and in quantities MORE THAN ANGLERS WITH LEAD FISHING TACKLE EVER WILL!!! yet we anglers get the blame.

Ponder that thought!!!

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fatman
“Cycler68 - only one flaw in your test suggestion. Lead is a naturally leaching material in the environment.”

Actually, I have to disagree… there is a lot more than one single flaw in the test proposed! :wink:

I also disagree with the “naturally-leaching” comment. Lead is actually quite stable. It is the alloys in lead that leave long before lead, particularly zinc…

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Hap, the major exception to lead’s stability is when it becomes lead oxide. This reaction is cataylzed by exposure of the lead to acetic acid, an acid fairly common in the environment. The process is non-consumptive of the catalyst. In other words, over time a teaspoon of acetic acid can turn a ton of lead into crumbly, white, biologically available lead oxide. Under certain conditions, the reaction is rapid. Tons of lead used to be converted in a few day’s time back when it was commonly used in paint. If you look at the literature of fine scale and preservation modellers, there is a wealth of information online, along with some tails of woe from museums and collections. If you have ever seen minnie balls covered in whitish powder, that is the reaction in action. That white powder is dangerous. A lot of (American) Civil War buffs don’t seem to be aware of that. I came across this because I ussed to do a lot of miniatures wargaming. I have had figures dissolve in piles of dust after being washed in acetic acid to clear mold compound before priming. The figures were set aside for several months and literally dissolved.

Ed

P.S. Lead does leach naturally or unnaturally,in some areas. I might not be able to explain the chemistry of it, but it does happen and it happens a fair amount. Leachate from some of the old, abandoned mines in the western US is a very real problem for some.
My first quarter of calculus taught me a most vaulable lesson on Religion & Philosophy, “Just because I don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.”

As another random thought, 2,4-D is also a naturally occurring chemical in parts of the SE US, under very special circumstances. It has been found in nature and the reactions were proven in labs. It is unusual, but it CAN occur naturally. I still call it a pesticide.

Warmest regards from a mostly lead-free angler.

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I wouldn’t think any of this lead ban talk would bother us. Upstream and dry! Are you guys worm dunkers or what?

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Well yes Stevehaun I am a wormdunker and jig fisher as well as a fly fisher!!! After 2 yrs of medical problems that kept me from tackle making, fishing and hunting, things are under control and I’ve been given the green light to start playing with my toys again. I’ve poured jigs, powder painted them, started tying again both flies and jigs, made a bunch of in-line spinners, v spinners like beetle spins. So when spring hits this year I’ll be well stocked for whatever fishing I want to do, and I’ll enjoy it whatever way I want. And if fishing with anything but a fly rod offends anyone - Well that’s their problem not mine.