Lead in fly tying, again.

Fly Patterns
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Maybe we need to have this discussion again.

This statement came up in thread:

“Not only is it harmful to the wildlife just like your average split-shot sinker of old, but more and more areas have outright bans on all lead fishing tackle, which already includes lead core fly line in most states.”

Most of this is not true based on the evidence. Right now, only a couple of new england states have an overall ban on lead used in fly tying/fishing. There are some areas that ban the use of weight on flies for other reasons than lead contamination. There are other areas within a State where the use of lead is restricted because of concerns about certain wildlife. So far, no other state has passed an overall ‘lead ban’.

The driving force in the lead contamination issue is it’s effects on some game and non game birds that collect stuff from the bottom of streams/ponds/lakes or shorelines into their stomachs for digestive purposes. The main issue was, and maybe still is, lead bird shot from shotgun hunting. Only a couple of field studies have been done, although there have been lots of research papers published using the data from these few studies.

While each study found strong evidence that lead bird shot was present and was adversely effecting the animals, there was only one or two mentions of fishing tackle at all, and in those instances it was the line and hooks that caused the problem with the animals, not the lead.

There is absolutley zero evidence collected that even suggests that lead used in fly fishing is in any way causing any environmental damage. I’ve looked at it all, and the mention of regular fishing tackle lead is so rare as to be statistically zero. Fly fishing lead is not mentioned even once in any study done on lead contamination.

Any bans that currently exist are not based in fact. Like many such things, they are political, and can be, and are being, fought at several levels and will ultimately be reversed.

The chance that lead will be banned from fishing tackle in general is slight and getting smaller every day. It’s certainly possible, especially in smaller states with small legislatures that don’t pay much attention to facts, that there could be another state that passes a ban on lead. Hasn’t happened yet, though.

It’s certainly not going to happen in most places.

Other environmental issues are fast overcoming the lead issue and relegating it to unimportance. Which is where it belongs.

The last time this came up, I did an internet search and followed links for hours reading all the available research and the papers it produced. I encourage any interested person to do this. It’s amazing how the facts, which can be found if you look at the actual research data, get twisted to the point where all of a sudden fishing lead became an issue. It’s also amazing how many of the press releases, papers, and organizatiosn involved used the exact same wording from just one or two of the papers published, and none of them used, or even mentioned, the conclusions and recommendations made by the initial researchers that actually collected all the evidence.

I trie to find that original thread, but apparently I’m not searching for it correctly.

Bob Boese wrote an article about it here:

“Lead Sinkers and the Environment” - Fly Angler’s OnLine

Buddy

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I’ve read the studies too, and disagree with your assessment of the environmental impact. Rational people with access to the same set of facts and statistics are in genuine disagreement over whether or not lead in the quantities we are discussing has a negative impact on wildlife. Dismissing all of the arguments as political in motive is not only inappropriate in the context of rational debate (ad hominem), but potentially dangerous as well because it could be underplaying an actual hazard.

That said, the subject of environmental impact doesn’t even have to register with a fly fisher to know what the appropriate course of action is. New Hampshire already has a ban on any lead-based fishing weight less than one once or one inch long (in the case of jigs). The law doesn’t expressly ban flies with lead, but it’s generally acknowledged that this is an omission and will be fixed soon (not for 2010 though). New Hampshire also bans the use of lead shot in shotguns when waterfowling.

Other states (not just New England states) either have bans already or are considering them. In the UK (at least some parts), total bans are already in effect. The National Parks Service in the US has been trying to ban all lead from its 170+ fishable parks since early last year (the NRA is fighting this and what’s going to actually be enforced by the end of 2010 is uncertain at this time).

What all of this makes clear is that there is a currently growing number of locations, here and abroad, for which lead-containing flies cannot be used. Even some vendors are seeing the writing on the wall. Orvis already refuses to stock lead wire and doesn’t sell flies containing lead anymore.

So there are two choices, assuming we all want to obey the law:

  1. Use lead-based wire for fly tying. You can’t use your flies everywhere and stand a chance of not being able to use them in your home waters if your area passes a ban.

  2. Use a non-toxic wire and avoid the entire issue.

It’s hard to coherently argue over the environmental impact of a nymph in a stream bed. It’s an emotionally charged topic and opinions are as common as certain body parts. What I don’t think is debatable is that in absolute practical terms, non-toxic wire is the better choice overall.

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Buddy:

An excellent post on “the state of our knowledge” relative to lead poisoning of wildlife. There is, however, one exception to your statement relative to the banishing of lead use as related to fishing. For several years now, the use of lead for weight on lines and leaders has been banned in Yellowstone National Park. Ironically, and to the best of my recollection (it has been nearly seven year since I last fished the Park), the regulations given to fishermen when they get their licenses to fish in the park, don’t say anything about a prohibition of the use of lead weighted nymph patterns. They do speak to the ban on the use of split-shot and lead wraps and other lead sinker types.

This is certainly not a fishery-related concern here in Texas; either along the coast or inland.

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Good post!
I find it comforting that certain groups have the dubious distinction of trying to save the world and not let facts get in their way. :rolleyes:

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The lead shot issue is based on waterfoul areas where HUGE concentrations of lead shot accumulate in small areas. And the fact that waterwoul to consume some of that shot.

There is nothing so far that I have read that suggests splitshot and lead weight in flies have any impact at all.

Namekagon…you mean the same people that are crying global warming…while we’ve been on a 10yr cooling trend? :lol:

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Is this a discussion on the effects of lead in the environment or certain areas banning lead? If its a private lease and they ban lead, fine, I don’t have to fish there. If it is a public area and the PUBLIC votes on it, fine, I don’t have to fish there.

The effects of trace amounts of lead in microhabitats are inconclusive at best and statistical results can be interpreted however one wants to interpret them.

Fact: If an animal ingests sufficient quantities of lead, it will probably die.

Theory: The use of lead products (i.e. hooks, wire, etc.) releases toxic amounts of lead into the water table. How long does the product need to be submerged? How trace are the amounts released? How long are these amounts viable in the environment?

Much of the "information’ given on the internet is supposition. For every article that says lead wire on a hook is bad, another states the data was inconclusive or too small an amount to make a difference.

People will believe what they want to believe. I got a question: If I hunt waterfowl on a pond, I have to use non-lead shot. If I hunt doves onthe same pond, I can use lead?

Hypocrosy:1 Common Sense:0

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Global warming is real…at least during the summer months.

I call it weather.

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You can’t use lead if you’re shooting doves in a FWS waterfowl production area.
Number of duck shot at over water vs. doves…common sense?

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Jeff,

Lets look at your points one at a time:

“Dismissing all of the arguments as political in motive is not only inappropriate in the context of rational debate (ad hominem), but potentially dangerous as well because it could be underplaying an actual hazard.”

The actual data collected does not, even once in all of the actual studies done that I can find, not just the interpretations of it, mention even one animal or bird that even had a fly fishing fly or weight in it. Since no evidence exists that it’s causing a problem, what other reason besides political could there be? Was this done because it “could” be a problem? Why impact an industry like that without any evidence to support it? Like I said before, small states with small legislatures that make decisions not based on facts. If you have some kind of data to refute this, please post it, as I can’t find it. I can find plenty of ‘interpretations’, but no real data from any study.

“Rational people with access to the same set of facts and statistics are in genuine disagreement over whether or not lead in the quantities we are discussing has a negative impact on wildlife.”

I’d say that since there is no evidence that the fly fishing or tying use of lead is even mentioned in any of the facts or statistics in any of the data collected calls that whole rational people part of this into question. It’s pretty obvious that this has become a political question, not one based on facts. Politics is seldom rational. Again, if you can find any data on this, I’m willing to be persuaded.

“That said, the subject of environmental impact doesn’t even have to register with a fly fisher to know what the appropriate course of action is.”

Huh? Clearly, the apropriate course of action is to obey the existing laws. After that, there is no negative environmental impact and thus no reason not to use lead if you want to. Again, show me some facts to prove me wrong.

“What all of this makes clear is that there is a currently growing number of locations, here and abroad, for which lead-containing flies cannot be used.”

No, actually, it’s not at all clear that this is the case. Exactly the opposite from all the data I can find. Most states do not ban lead at all, much less in fly fishing tackle. The national parks are trying to ban such lead, but since they don’t have any statistical evidence, they are having trouble doing so. How that goes will be political, not based on any evidence.

[b]"So there are two choices, assuming we all want to obey the law:

  1. Use lead-based wire for fly tying. You can’t use your flies everywhere and stand a chance of not being able to use them in your home waters if your area passes a ban.

  2. Use a non-toxic wire and avoid the entire issue."[/b]

Avioding issues is not in my nature. I’m willing to be convinced of something based on facts, but I won’t just go along to avoid the issue. For the vast number of fly tyers, using lead in their flies won’t be an issue in well over 99% of the waters in this country. For the small minority where it is, small states in new england specifically, know your local laws and act accordingly. If you are traveling, check in advance.

There are reasons that we use lead. It works well for it’s intended purpose. The substitute may not be as effective and it costs more. If you wish to use the substitute for your own personal reasons, whether they be environmental or just a preference, that’s up to you. But those of us that choose to use lead can continue to do so and we shouldn’t believe that we are hurting the environment or somehow being irresponsible when there is no actual evidence that this is the case.

As I’ve stated repeatedly, I’m willing to be persuaded that I’m wrong. But I know how to count and I can add, divide, and do percentages. So show me some untainted by retoric numbers that I can look at.

Buddy

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Ever hunt in Texas? Large majority of doves are shot over or near tanks and ponds. The same water we hunt ducks over. We also hunt ducks over farm fields, no water. The same fields we hunt dove over. If I am hunting waterfowl, I am required to use a non-lead shot, regardless of the environment I am hunting in. If I am hunting dove, I can use lead.

I would bet more dove are shot over these water habitats in Texas than ducks.

Common sense would dictate to either ban lead shot or allow it for types of wingshooting.

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Who cares? Really?

Even if the flyfishing community is so small as to not even register a problem in and of itself, we still add to it.

And by purchasing non-lead products we mitigate our admittedly infinitesimal effect.

Are there really products we have to have that must be lead-based?

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I am with you. OMG what is the big deal with lead? We freak because we find out CHINA is putting it in things we eat and drink off of.
Tungsten and lead substitutes are great. I haven’t used lead for years (except the sinking lines, I have no idea but as stated I am sure there is lead in them. Beyond my control on that and YES I would buy a sinking line with an alternative.
Granted, there probably isn’t enough to hurt anything, but times that by the ever growing numbers of fishing.

To me that is like a smoker eating health food and saying, every little bit helps:confused:

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http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?t=31927&highlight=lead

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?t=26604&highlight=lead

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?t=26666&highlight=lead

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?t=26698&highlight=lead

enough already??

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Buddy:

I’ve read your posts and don’t care. This isn’t a personal slight, but an opinon based solely in reason. I’ve seen detailed studies on the effect of lead in the environment and have formed my own conclusions. There are people with doctorates in organic chemistry that don’t agree with respect to the effects of lead on the environment in the quantities we are discussing. I don’t expect people on a fly fishing website to have more compelling arguments.

Arguing about the environmental impact of lead in our watersheds holds as much interest to me as discussing abortion, capital punishment or gun control. That is, zero.

Bans exist and more bans are on the way. These are inarguable facts. If you can’t see this, then I guess rational discussion is pointless at this time.

If you want to be able to fish your flies now (wherever you want) and in the future (wherever you want) with absolute certainty, there is only one choice. Again, this is factual and has nothing to do with scientific reality.

You might believe that lead in flies means nothing to nature. You might believe the existing laws are pointless. You might believe that your state will never pass bans that will affect you. Fine. But these are gambles, safe or otherwise. If you don’t want to play the odds and hope you’ll never have to throw away your old flies, then use non-toxic fly wire.

For the record, I don’t care what you use, or what anyone else decides to use. I just want to point out the not insignificant chance that anyone getting into our hobby might have to throw away some material and/or flies if they go with lead and the legislative trends continue. You obviously have a different opinion which you’ve already made clear.

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Maybe I should have said nationwide. :wink:
Many of these bans don’t require common sense…if it feels good do it.
Reminds me of the big health concern over consuming game animals shot with high power, center fire, lead core, bullets. It turned out the risk is so minuscule it’s become a non-issue in everyone’s mind except…you got it… do good activists that have nothing better to do.

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There’s always an activist out there who will have their own “compelling” reason to ban something that “somebody else” does…or owns.

Lets really open up this debate…Let’s compare the number of fish killed by lead-weighted flies…to the number of fish killed by Catch-&-Release. It could be that we would be better off fishing with lead “AND” eating our catch? HEH HEH…evil ain’t it? :twisted:

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Depends, are we talking C&R with barb or barbless:cool:

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Couldn’t agree with you more. If you don’t want to use lead, drive a gas/diesal engine, or use a regular light bulb, then don’t, if it makes you feel good. Leave the rest of us alone.

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I am going to take the lead issue away from fishing for a moment and ask the question. If the CDC and other agencies are so against lead and the environmentalist groups against the use of lead, then why does the government still allow lead in paint for industry and bridges? States that still use salt in the winter salt those bridges to high heaven and guess what? the salt errods the paint from the bridge and puts it in the ground and ultimately in the streams.

Just curious.

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NICE!!! very nice. Great point. They are trying though. Here all residential use has been banned.