A thread about seal fur on the ‘Things Wanted’ board prompts me to ask this question:
If you have seal, polar bear, junglecock, or some exotic or ‘quasi-legal’ material, how do you prove it was obtained from a legal source if you’re ever questioned about possessing it or trying to sell it?
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 25 April 2006).]
I have polar bear that both federal and state personel have looked at and only asked where i obtained it. I said my dad had it in the 30’s and the subject was dropped. It can be obtained from liscenced dealers these days along with proof of the sale. Junglecock can be purchased at any fly shop–no restrictions
Bill
William and others,
Let me clarify:
Yes, some materials are obtainable today. However, if anyone is like me, unorganized, loses or doesn’t keep paperwork or receipts, and has a sh*tload of stuff, how do I prove stuff was legal should I try and sell it?
For example, let’s say I have a piece of polar bear that’s 100 sq inches that I want to sell. I post something here or on ebay and I get a call from USF&W or NY DEC in which I am ‘asked’ to prove this material was procured legally. Other than saying I got it from someone who had it for at least 24 years, I can’t.
I ask in all seriousness. I hope some knowledgeable people respond because I may be in this position.
Allan
[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 26 April 2006).]
Seal is a big no no, unless it is grandfathered.
Polar Bear is legal if it was gotten with a permit, the hunter or the seller needs one not the buyer.
Junglecock is legal if it was raised with the intent to be killed, wild junglecock are a no no.
Joe Fox
Does the importation of seal fur refer to specific species of seal, or all pinipeds? Because I know that harp seals in particular are gett5ing to a population size where they’re about to eat themselves out of house and home, while other species are in need of protection.
I’ll copy some of the pertainent info I posted on the seal thread here:
Seals are protected in the United States by the marine mammal protection act that became effective Dec. 21, 1972. You can look it up on the web and read it yourself but it is 119 pages long. Here is a link to it.
[url=http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/laws/MMPA/mmpatext/mmpaall.pdf:ddd94]http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/laws/MMPA/mmpatext/mmpaall.pdf[/url:ddd94]
The basic points are:
The taking of marine mammals and the importation of any marine mammal or products is prohibited by the act. This includes whales, dolphins, seals, polar bear, otters, and they threw some rules about Yellowfin tuna in there as well. You can get a permit to bring back a polar bear if you have a hunting permit from Canada.
They grandfathered in any products that were in the US at the date the act was enacted. So if you have some seal or polar bear or whale teeth that came into the US prior to Dec 21, 1972 it is perfectly legal.
Native Alaskan peoples can take marine mammals for subsistence and sell art or clothing items made from marine mammal products.
You can get Polar bear and seal for fly tying outside of the US but I don’t see any legal way that material can be imported (except for PB hunted in Canada). It isn’t really dificult to get seal in the US. Several fly-tying dealers have it but I have only seen dyed and dark colors. I would assume that it comes from old coats.
There is ALOT of rumor, misinformation and heresay regarding the legality of fly tying materials and I am not a legal professional but I can read. I don’t know anything about the legality of Jungle Cock except that it seems to be openly available pretty much everywhere these days. That was not always true. I understand that in the 70’s-80’s (might have that time frame wrong) it was like illegal drugs. If you try to sell PB or seal on e-bay these days, they will cancel the auction. If one were trying to sell something like that, I would think it would be good to have an old bill of sale, taxidermy permit or something to prove it’s origin. There are lots of other questionable things floating around like creatures that are not native to the US and US migratory birds that can be hunted but are not waterfowl (like woodcock or sandhill crane). There are lots of state laws that might pertain as well. Anyone ever know of a bust involving illegal fly-tying materials?
flyfshr,
The one ‘bust’ that I recall involved George L. Herter. I believe it related to woodduck.
The reason I mentioned junglecock is because, yes it’s available today. However, for a period of time it was illegal. So, I guess all are legal now because no one can prove when a specific skin came into possession.
Also, if the law is that specific and limiting regarding seal, how is it that retail shops and catalogs openly sell it? There is no way to prove that a one gallon zip lock bag full of seals fur was obtained pre - 1972 or any other date.
I’m not sure there is a correct answer. I’ve contacted the USF&W and could only get a secretary or assistant who simply read me the regulation.
Allan
I don’t think you could get busted for woodduck unless it were taken illegally. It is my understanding that when the migratory bird protection act was passed that the use of waterfowl feathers for fly tying was exempted from the law. I haven’t been able to find the text to that law though. I too have heard alot of heresay about the Herters bust. The best I heard was from a MN wildlife officer who told me they were cited for undocumented jungle cock and there was a stuffed Eagle they got nailed for too. As far as seal goes, it looks like that any that was within the US prior to the enactment of the MMPA could be used for fly-tying. A single old coat would go a long long way. It would also be possible to cut up a craft or clothing item which was made by one of the native peoples of Alaska.
Here’s where John got his…old military coats…
[url=http://www.feathersmc.com/materials/Detail.php?prodID=28:81253]http://www.feathersmc.com/materials/Detail.php?prodID=28[/url:81253]
flyfshr,
You wrote,
“As far as seal goes, it looks like any that was within the US prior to the enactment of the MMPA could be used for fly-tying. A single old coat would go a long long way.”
That is both my point and my question: If you have 5, 10, 15, 20+ packs of seal fur dubbing, must you prove it was obtained prior to the act or is it up to the enforcing agency to prove it was obtained after the act?
Allan
The migratory bird act mainly makes selling materials or items made with those materials listed. But, you could go out and legally shoot a woodcock and use it for your own personal use and tie flies with them as long as you do not sell or probably even give them away you should be ok. Keep in mind this applies to even very common species covered under the act. (Like doves etc…)
Jeff
“That is both my point and my question: If you have 5, 10, 15, 20+ packs of seal fur dubbing, must you prove it was obtained prior to the act or is it up to the enforcing agency to prove it was obtained after the act?”
That is one that I just can’t answer. My guess would be that it would depend on how good a lawyer you have 
I don’t have any of the materials in question, but I would suggest you contact the authority who would cuff and stuff you and ask them how you verify the materials weren’t poached. They might have an officer who could assist you in an inventory and then issue a ‘document of legal possesion’, or something.
There’s almost nothin’ wrong with the first lie, it’s the weight of all the others holdin’ it up that gets ya’! - Tim