Is it flyfishing or jigging?

Just a little rant here.
Anyone who’s read my articles knows I’m no purist but…

Last time I brought this topic up (in another Forum) you would have thought I stole someone’s horse, shot their dog and assaulted their sister (or is it the other way around). Anyway, I recently received a mag that praised the French team’s new approach to Czech nymphing – using a twisted mono strike indicator of sorts. It brought back a pet peeve of mine dealing with the whole subject of Czech nymphing and such.
Is it really fly fishing?
I don’t think so.
What differentiates fly fishing from other forms of fishing is that the weight is in the line and the lure is very light. Consequently, to fly fish there really must be a casting aspect.
If you can perform the same task as well, or maybe better, with a 12 foot jigging pole…well, that technique just shouldn’t be allowed in a fly fishing contest.

Now please understand. If you want to Czech nymph and outfish everyone else on the water – because you probably will – be my guest. Just don’t tell me you are fly fishing.

Suppose I went to a “Fly Fishing Only” water and brought that jigging pole. I’m standing across the stream from someone who is Czech nymphing. Why is he allowed to stay and I have to leave? Because he had fly line he never uses?

Whataya think?

… I was thinking about what defines fly fishing from a very different point of view a couple days ago.

I was thinking that it is entirely possible to present a fly ( however broadly or narrowly one wants to define that term as it is used in “fly fishing” ) with only a furled leader and tippet, if your technique is good.

If I went out to catch a fish without a fly rod of any kind, and without a fly line of any kind, and I presented a fly by hand using only a furled leader and tippet onto / into whatever water my prey was lurking, would I be fly fishing ??

To my way of thinking, the answer is YES.

So I guess my answer to your question, Bob, is if there is a fly at the end of the tippet, it’s fly fishing, regardless what the tippet is attached to and what means are used to present the fly to the fish.

It seems to me that if you were in fact fishing a fly with that “jigging pole” you would have as much right to be fishing that stream as the guy using the Czech nymphing technique. And, if you were fishing a jig with that pole, you should be kicked off the “Fly Fishing Only” water.

John

P.S. Shall we sweeten / stir the pot by mentioning Tenkara ??

Don’t say it John , the last time
the “T” word came up , the thread
got shut down. I really do like your
view on the subject of how fly
fishing is defined. I think if the
weight of the line is what deliver’s
the near weightless fly , it must
be fly fishing.

I thought the Tenkara discussion was a good one. I got to see how different people define the sport. My take was the line being what casts the fly. Fly being anything tied to a hook, synthetic or natural, as long as it stays light enough for the line to be doing the casting. If you were just going to be Czech nymphing the entire day, a jigging pole would work as well, but if there is one point in the day when you lay out the cast, it’s fly fishing. There are times I “dap” or just drop a fly into a tight spot without a cast, sometimes with only the leader out the tip, so am I not fly fishing for that fish, but if I lay out 10 feet of line to hit the next spot I am?

As usual, I just like to provide different perspectives to make people think about things more and in a different way. In reality, everyone has their own definition of the sport, and it doesn’t bother me one bit if anyone decided I’m not a fly fisherman because I don’t do it their way. The only place it matters are in restricted waters and there it just depends on how the law spells it out. I think if the weight of the line does the casting and what’s attached to the hook was all tied and wrapped on then it’s fly fishing. Tenkara and Czech nymphing are iffy but I’d say if they are both using flies it’s close enough to fly fishing for me to not care, even if the weight of the line never does any work. I can’t discount them because then every time I lowered a fly into a hole or swam a fly around the bank without casting I wouldn’t be fly fishing at that moment. I don’t think fishing a fly on a spinning rod under a bubble or behind a couple split shot is fly fishing though. Something else’s weight does the casting so it’s out to me. The line gets blurred for me if you’re using a fly and not casting it. Scent on flies also matters to some. Not to me, but a thread about scents got many riled up about it not being fly fishing once the scent touched the fly. The great thing is we can all talk about it and be civil and hear eveyone’s point of view. Maybe our minds will be changed, maybe it will just solidify our position, but talking about the sport is why we’re all here right?

It’s all fishing. I don’t see the big deal. 90% of the time, I use a fly rod, the rest I’m using spinning gear. There are days I just want to use a rooster tail, or toss a plastic worm along the bank. There are days I want to use a fly rod. There are days I dapple / jig with my fly rod. To me it’s all fishing and it’s all fun. Why tha arguments over symantics?

what else are folks going to do when they’re not out fishing?

Gents,
Fly fishing is NOT a contest where specific rules MUST be adhered to . Semantics do not a fly fisherman make or unmake. Lets get our collective noses out of the upturned positions and just call it fishing . i happen to do it MY way with absolutely NO regard to what YOU ( generic) think about or call it.

Mark
Currently in Kalifornia but…

Doesn’t matter to me what the people here think fly fishing is. What the State of Washington Dept. of Fish and Wildlife does matter and here is what they have to say;

[FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][LEFT]In “Fly Fishing Only” waters, an angler may
use only the following tackle: up to 2 flies,
each with a barbless single-point hook, not
to exceed ?[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1]" from point to shank, and a[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT][SIZE=1][LEFT]conventional fly line (other line may be used
for backing or leader if attached to at least
25 feet of fly line). Anglers may not use fixed
spool reels, bait, or weight attached to the
leader or line. Only knotless nets may be[/LEFT]
used to land fish.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

I think that all of these definitions are pretty much useless.

If it’s within the law and you believe you are fly fishing, then you are.

If my definition doesn’t fit yours, that’s fine.

If your definition doesn’t fit mine, that’s okay too.

We don’t NEED a definition, in my never to be humble opinion. We need folks to fly fish. The more the merrier. Broaden the boundaries, let more folks in. Make it more popular, get more people out there fishing.

Rods, poles, line, no line. Czech, Nigerian, Polish, English, or even Austrailian nymph fishing is just fine to me (Not the Irish kind though, they aren’t welcome!!). I have friends that even fish those awful dry flies, and I still talk to them. I’ve been known to assoiciate with people that actually LIKE fishing with old fashioned, out of date, heavy fly rods made from a kind of grass that grows in China.

I know a fellow that always fishes with the same fly…but he changes rods and lines all the time. The best fly fisherman I ever saw made so few casts with his actual fly line that it had rotted and cracked on the reel and he never even noticed…and he was better fisherman than all of us, probably all of us combined.

I’ve even used bait on a hook at the end of my tippet, both real eggs and worms, and I used a fly rod and line to do so…

I say its fly fishing.

Nana Nana Na Na!!!

Ford!!!

Wait, I drive a GMC…JIMMY!! :wink:

Buddy

The way I see it it’s simple… You got “fishin” …and you got "ain’t fishin’ " I been fishin all my life, and I fish lots of ways.
I truly love fly fishin the best, but as long as it’s fishin, and it’s legal…I’m in !!!
Kerry, and Mark, and Jeff, already said the rest…:slight_smile: :slight_smile:
…ModocDan
Oh, and I drive a Chevy have done so since I started drivin’ …Buy American ! .YeeHaw!

So if I am fishing small pockets on the Big Thompson River in CO, using a Stimulator, not casting but simply with the leader outside the rod tip, and setting the fly in pockets of water, then I am not fly fishing? :slight_smile: Been there, done that, and I’ll call it fly fishing! :smiley:

I doubt I can say anything about this subject that hasn’t been said a thousand times before.

Saltwater fly patterns, whether were talking Charlie styles or Clouser’s use a lot of metal eyes, of all sorts, from bead chain to machined brass to lead. Are they Jigs?

In my daily offerings are a series of flies that lend themselves to Sea Habits and Surf Candies, which some might say are like casting a glass vase, yet I wield them with ease and grace.
If I put lead or non-lead wire in a nymph, how many turns of what diameter wire does it take, before it’s no longer light? And what about the hook, 1X fine, standard wire or 4X strong?
Beads obviously can take a fly from being light to some other definition and where would a line get drawn between putting a tungsten bead on a bugger hook vs. simply buying undressed crappie jigs? If the finished " fly " looked like a bugger and was stripped on the retrieve, would it be jigging or fly fishing, or maybe those two things can be synonymous.
Would a glass bead be light? Compared to what and what size glass bead are we talking about and on what size hook? I certainly don’t have those answers, the only answer I ever look for is what kind of response do the fish have to it.

Light or heavy is in the eye of angler. What I find comfortable and commonplace on a large western lake, might seem gargantuan in both proportion and weight to a devotee of small chalk streams. If I use a five inch long Hi-Tie to take a ten pound plus trout, am I fly fishing or am I using a crank bait?
If you were the one stripping that fly back when the fish struck, would that thought even cross your mind?
I’ll bet if anything, you’d be focused on landing the fish and then maybe, your mind would turn to what a great article you’ll be writing soon about this fly fishing experience. If at the moment you landed that fish, I offered up " To bad you couldn’t get 'em on a fly " how would you take it ?
Would the headlines read, " Angler Found Bludgeoned by Landing Net "?

We’ve a fellow of some note just up the hill from my home who’s written, tied and promoted Czech nymphing a fair amount. During the warm weather months, we fish the same waters. I in my way, he in his, I’d like to think we both have something to contribute to fly fishing.

Had you hailed from a little town like Dunsmuir California ( Hey we don’t know each other, maybe you did ), then names like Ted Fey, Joe Kimsey and patterns such as the Black Bomber, Black Spent Wing, Larry, Mary, Leah and the Cro Fly would all be in your lexicon. Based only on this thread, you probably wouldn’t refer to those patterns as being light enough to be deemed flies, nor would you wish them to be. If you came from that little town, you might be use to fishing a brace of those patterns and I doubt you’d find Czech nymphing much of a stretch, more like an inevitability. But I guarantee you this, you’d swear you were fly fishing, on some of the most beautiful water on earth.

For about a third of the year my dry flies are roughly the same length as the cork grip on most fly rods…am I fly fishing or walkin’ a spook?

When the beast blows up on that thing, I call it… Fish On !

Just a few of my ramblings…

[SIZE=1]Be well Bob and get out there and fish ( more ), Dave
[/SIZE]

Fly fishn or jiggn? Hmmmm… Pondering, wondering…Nope I still dont care.

… “transportation” instead of cars, pickups, motorcycles, airplanes, boats, etc. And why would we ever refer to a brand name like Jimmy, Ford, Chevy, Toyoto, etc.

… “watercraft” instead of river sleds, drift boats, rafts, pontoons, float tubes, etc. Why would we ever refer to Bucks, or Hyde, or Clackacraft, or MacKenzie, etc.

… “state” instead of Illinois, Kentucky, Arizona, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc. Why would we ever prefer one state where we don’t live to one where we do live ??

Seems to me that if someone wants to raise, again, a question about what is fly fishing on a Bulletin Board on a website called FlyAnglers OnLine, people who participate in that conversation shouldn’t be told they have their “collective noses” in the “upturned position.”

Seems to me it isn’t about semantics - it’s about using language to differentiate one kind of fishing from another. Which is what CoachBob’s original post is about.

Just saying …

Hey John? Yup.
LF

I don’t even like the whole notion of competitive fly fishing, but i have to say that if you perform the task with a fly rod, fly reel, fly line, and some kind of leader with a “fly” at the end of it, it is in fact fly fishing. I do appreciate the rant though because my thoughts mirror those of the original author of this thread. None-the-less, i need to keep my mouth shut, and not criticise another persons’ technique if just such an one is a legal form of fishing, and it brings joy and satisfaction to that individual. To me, dragging 3+ heavy nymphs along the bottom would not be my notion of a pleasurable flyfishing experience.

aa

[QUOTE=JohnScott;359050Seems to me it isn’t about semantics - it’s about using language to differentiate one kind of fishing from another. Which is what CoachBob’s original post is about.

Just saying …[/QUOTE]

By the Icon he used to start this thread, looks like he is pretty upset about what he believes is not “flyfishing”. I better go throw away all the size 20 beadheaded jigs I use, and I dont want to let a streamer pause in the river. I might get kicked off the “flys only” section of the river for using the dreaded JIG.

Yup. Just saying.

Czech is no different than tight line nymphing was 20yrs ago. Nothing new. I think a long time ago this same discussion revolved around whether or not nymphing was fly fishing. Got forbid we attach a bobber to the line…and lets face it, a bobber is no different than a strike indicator. It just sounds more “fly fishin like”. LOL! Just go fish. Stay within the regs. And enjoy yourself.

It does make a difference in some sense. French nymphing – where no line is extended beyond the tip of the rod – is flyfishing under international rules of competition. Although the influence is less in the US, manufacturers are going to make equipment that best matches what the competitors do – they’re “the best” after all (that was sarcasm, btw). And what the manufacturers make has an effect on what we can buy.

According to the article that I just read in a major FF mag, European style nymphing is a result of those rules of competition, which don’t allow any additional weight (other than what’s in the fly) but don’t require that fly line be used at all, and there’s apparently no limit oh how heavy the the flies can be.

I personally don’t care how anyone else fishes, as long as it’s in a legal and sporting manner.

As others have pointed out, it also makes a difference where the law spells out what fly fishing is. French nymphing would not be legal in most of the fly-only water that I fish.

Unless one is talking what’s legal in the waters they intend to fish, I do think it’s all about semantics. Sure, it’s a legitimate topic to discuss. I don’t think any of the posts have said someone had their nose in an upturned position. What I’m seeing here is there are different opinions and folks are expressing those opinions.

To me, it’s all fishing and it’s all good. As long as the method of bringing fish to hand is legal in the water upon which it’s practiced, I don’t care.

I do think we get too hung up on names. How many people have said let me get XYZ out of the car when they may be driving a van, a truck, an SUV or a car? I know I say “car” all the time when in fact, we have a van and 2 cars in our family.

I play bluegrass music on my guitar. I hear the debates all the time in music circles about “that ain’t bluegrass”. My response there is typically the same. It may not be bluegrass, but it sure is good music.

the same with this debate, it may not be fly fishing but it sure does look like that guy is having fun doing it.

The end result is the person is having fun, they are relieving the stress build up from our everyday lives, they may even catch a few fish in the process.

No harm / no foul it’s all fishing.

Jeff