After a few days of mulling over my answer, I feel it is time to address the inaccurate allegations leveled against me. The post was pointed out to me by another member Monday evening while I was in the chat room.To those statements, I give this response:
A few days after receiving the check from Z, my family & I made the decision to have our phone/cable/internet disconnected for a period. My wife was off work due to her pregnancy & we had lost her income. During this time, I could not send out a few orders I had received, including Z’s. With no phone, or internet, I had no way to contact anyone. Starting in early December, I was again able to get the Net back, and informed my customers as to my situation. The week of Dec. 7th, I was able to send out orders again, including z’s fly. It didn’t arrive. After a few inquiries(after talking to Z) I discovered the fly had been included in another customer’s order,minus the shipping label. This was mid-January. The next time I had met Z in the chat room was the next week, and informed him that I would be sending him the fly as soon as I had received it back, I was met with a statement from him(direct quote) “You’re full of crapola, my friend”. I then tried to ask him in a private chat what would make him happy, a refund, the fly, or both. I received no response from him, but was asked to quit hiding & come out in the main forum, which I did. After that, we were asked by the chat moderator to please “go private” if we had a dispute with each other, which I then tried again, with no response. At this point, another rant was aimed my way & Z left, with no response to either question I posed.That was the last time I had spoken to him. Then , as I stated, I entered the chat earlier this week & was informed of the “Dishonest Member” post.
Addressing the allegation that I had tied the fly & passed it off as my own: I take pride in my work to the point that I provide a signature card with my flies. My work is MY WORK- just that MINE. If Z thought that I was passing my work off as someone elses, then why was it the SECOND fly he bought from me by the same tier??? Almost two years has passed since he bought the first one, and I had never heard a complaint in that time. If he would like authentication of the flies, I can contact the tier & have him contact Z as to the authenticity of both flies.
The money from both flies I sold Z was fro a charitable organization I have done work for. With the money already in the hands of the organization, I have refunded Z out of my own pocket, NOT THEIRS. The frame for the first fly was also paid for out of my pocket, NOT THEIRS. The one thing I cannot understand is that if Z thought the fly was fraudulent, why almost two years later, would he buy another fly from the same tier from me??? Doesn’t make sense.
What I am guilty of is sending the fly late. Of all the folks that had late orders, Z was the only one to have a complaint. In the 21 years I have been selling flies, you could count the number of complaints I have had on one hand & still have fingers left over. Was it bad for business?? Of course it was, but my family comes first, and given the choice of angering a few people or feeding my family & putting a roof over their heads?? No question, family wins every time. And, of those whose orders were late, 2 have made additional purchases from me this week.
So, to those of you who might have been swayed by a shovel full of angry words, make your own minds. I’m not hiding from anyone, and i’m not going anywhere anytime soon. Z, the fly was sent out today. If you don’t want it, send it back. I’ll gladly add it to my collection. I remain, Jamie Webb(mcmutt)
Jamie,
I think it’s good you posted up your side of the story. I believe you on the authenticity issue.
But I want to talk about the philosophical issue and priorities thing.
I understand and appreciate “family first.” But…personally…I don’t put my family ahead of my integrity. If keeping my word costs me more than I bargained for, that’s MY problem. If it hurts my family, that’s MY problem. This guy didn’t make a deal to feed your family. You did. This is a good example of why people should be very careful to make sure they aren’t making promises they can’t keep. I assume it was you who helped your wife get pregnant, right? So the medical situation resulting in loss of income was also YOUR responsibility. Sure wasn’t Z’s.
I’m not saying this to jump in the middle between you and Z or take sides at all. MY point is one about business and integrity…in general. This situation just provides an excellent example to base that discussion on. When I do business with people, I expect them to take the same view I have of keeping their obligations. I’m usually disappointed. Keeping promises is NOT supposed to be an “unless it hurts me” sort of proposition. That’s called not keeping your word. No excuses. When/if it happens, you apologize, make it right, and take your lumps. I don’t care if you got ran over by a bus while crossing the street!
You see, there’s nothing wrong with saying to someone you’ve struck a deal with, “Hey, I’m on the short and having trouble feeding the kiddos. I want to make good on this, but I would really appreciate it if you give me some time.” Almost every half-way decent human on Earth would grant that request. But make no mistake - THEY are doing YOU a favor by allowing you to modify the deal. YOU don’t have any sort of right to modify the deal without their permission…even when you play the “family first” or “kids first” trump card.
That’s my opinion. And I’m not just stating it for your consideration. I’m tossing it out there for general consumption.
Not placing any of the blame at all on Z, just stating my case, SM. And trying to straighten out a few points. Taking my lumps as they come, as I said. Wasn’t trying to modify anything, just trying to make things right & wasn’t getting a response, except in a BB post accusing me of fraud.
My entire post was in response to the following:
“Was it bad for business?? Of course it was, but my family comes first, and given the choice of angering a few people or feeding my family & putting a roof over their heads?? No question, family wins every time.”
The choice was between making good on your word or “feeding (your) family.” And by the rationale you used, one could excuse stealing and murder in the name of “taking care of my kids.” And I am saying a man of honor:
- doesn’t put himself in this situation, and if he does he begs for mercy
- doesn’t hide his shortcomings behind his pregnant wife
Sorry you misunderstood the more displomatic approach I took the first time.
SilverMallard
Not to take the side of the underdog or even excuse my short comings, it’s good to know there’s a saint among us.
You don’t have to be a saint to be a man of honor and integrity. It is precisely this defeatist attitude and eagerness to compromise these things in our society today that I am concerned about.
It doesn’t take a saint to keep his word. It simply takes good character.
Maybe it was an underdog thing after all.
I can’t argue the substance of what you say…just the :?: tough love :?: delivery.
Although SilverMallard said it well, A saint is so much more than just keeping ones word or commitments. That simply takes characted,honesty and integrity without excuses. To honor ones commitments in hardly a saintly act, it’s expected.
Mark
Someone once said…
“I could not love thee Dear so much , loved I not Honor more!”
mcmutt,
I sympathize with hard times and family need. God knows how many of us are a pay check or two away from experiencing the wolf at the door. That being said, I believe it was still the seller’s responsibility to maintain contact with his customer and conclude all transactions in a satisfactory fashion. A logical course of action before the plug was pulled would have been to get the snail mail address of everyone who was due flies. Public libraries have free Internet access through which Hotmail and other Email accounts may be reached.
If you have just disappeared from the face of the earth and can’t be contacted by phone, Internet, or mail, you look like a crook regardless of what your home situation was. When the buyer finally found you again, you experience his justifiable frustration, anger and scepticism about your honesty. If you put yourself in the buyer’s shoes and consider how this transaction looked to him, you will understand his reaction. It was very bad business that looked deceptive and fraudulent. Sorry, just my two percent of a dollar. 8T 
bottom line… family and/or personal problems should remain just that and not become problems for someone else.
Now let’s all go fishin’
Will
You guys haven’t a clue about the lad you are discussing, let alone his character or honor. This thread really drives home just how ridiculous BB’s really are. You all sound pretty sad boys, keep on saving souls :roll:
Salmon Chaser
Salmon Chaser,
You are correct in the assumption that we can’t weigh this individual’s soul or measure the content of his character. I’m sure Jamie is a very nice person and is someone we would enjoy sharing a stream with if we had the chance to meet in person. We can, however, judge his own description of his business practices as disorganized and lackadaisical. I believe that poor business management has been the only negative thing said about Jamie.
You, on the other hand, seem more than ready to impugn the soul and character of everyone who has commented on this situation. What’s your motivation for your sweeping condemnation of seven or eight people that you don’t know at all? 8T
If a person is in a business, he or she has a responsibility to his or her clients and customers. As has been previously stated, there are many and varied means of contacting folks. Baring horrific or extraordinary circumstances excuses and reasons don’t count. Blaming the problem on the customer is unaccountable.
Thank you Salmon Chaser. I read this thread and the other, but I still don’t know either member and it’s really none of my business. That said, I don’t know how anyone can pass judgement on another just from hearing a story and responding to the situation.
I know, you all weren’t passing judgement, just stating your 2 cents. What you beleive character is, what good business is, BLAH BLAH BLAH.
This is a situation where two individuals had a misunderstanding of some sort. That is TWO persons. There was no need for this ever to be brought up in the BB, and no need for anyone think they know the story and judge the people involved.
I don’t understand the problem here…
It’s simple…your handshake should be worth more than your signature…think about that…if you sign something you agree to the written terms and the loop holes …no loop holes if I shake your hand…I know what I agreed to…on this board we are dealing with handshakes…you have my word…what can I value more?
or you
Z says: “(You) sold me on a fly last year. He cashed my check in July. I never saw the fly.”
You say: “A few days after receiving the check from Z, my family & I made the decision to have our phone/cable/internet disconnected for a period… During this time, I could not send out a few orders I had received, including Z’s. With no phone, or internet, I had no way to contact anyone. Starting in early December, I was again able to get the Net back, and informed my customers as to my situation. The week of Dec. 7th, I was able to send out orders again, including z’s fly.”
So, we’re left to assume that you knew you had taken Z’s money in July, you had his name and address from July until December, and then you finally decided to send his fly to him 6 months late with no attempts to communication with him in the interim?
Why not mail the fly in July? Jamie, it sure sounds as if you could have done yourself better.
John
My daddy always said; “A man is only as good as his word”. Plain and simple… isn’t it?
The only judging going on around here is from the couple of fellas who chastised all other commentators for judging. I think my initial post was pretty darned clear about the motives and framework of my posts. Every discussion of ethics and character is NOT “judging.” If you FEEL judged, it is likely because you know you don’t measure up to the commonly held standards being discussed. That’s on YOU, not the people discussing the standards. The old, “If the shoe fits, wear it,” axiom applies.
And anyone willing to post about such things is OBVIOUSLY holding themselves to that standard IN PUBLIC. There is nothing hypocritical or judgmental about that. I stated MY standards and how I try to conduct myself. If you can’t deal with that, that would be YOUR problem.
RW here,
I think this is about enough of impugning people’s character on the world-wide web. It’s all apples and oranges and it was nasty from the beginning. Z has stated his case and Mcmutt has stated his. It should have all been done privately. Z shouldn’t have aired the dirty laundry and as much as called mutt a crook in public, and mcmutt ( considering the time involved) should have gone to a library or a neighbors and private messaged, or even just sent a postcard, to folks he owed the product too and explained the situation. Either way, taking sides and keeping the pot stirred is not what this website is all about.
Later, RW