Just read a rather involved way to balance a rod ,reel and line…seemed rather involved and technical.
I’m wondering how you all decide if a system is balanced?
When it feels good to cast for a day!
Kelly.
Balanced what is balance! I would have to agree with kglissmeyer along with how it feels when that giant fish is tugging on the end of the rod, that would be my balance
You might find this interesting.
[LEFT]Let us first rid ourselves of a widespread idea, which I have often had occasion to point out as false or , at least, much exaggerated: the reel does not balance the rod; though in the past when rods were ten feet or more, very long and very heavy, a reel as a counterweight did produce the illusion of balancing the rod in the hand; but it is the line which plays the principal role owing to its weight and the shape of it’s taper. It is indeed, on the line that the rod depends above all for giving its maximum, and yet retaining its balance. The ideal would be to be able to fish with the reel in your pocket! Charle Ritz 1959 [/LEFT]
And I dont believe it for 1 second and have never seen any actual data to back that statement up!
In this day of ultralight rods and ultrlight reels…I dont find “balancing” to be important. Now how a rod handles line is totally different. If you have a 9’ 5et rod and reel setup with the perfect WF line…what happens if you want to fish a sink tip? Or maybe a line with a longer belly?
This might get interesting so I’ll throw this into the discussion…
http://www.flyfishohio.com/a_question_of_balance.htm
I’ve been just going with reels I like… in the smallest size and relatively light…then just going fishing…just wondering if I was missing something.
Duck -
I recently used three different reels with different line weights on my new 7’9" for 4/5 rod. From the left - an Abel TR1 with a DT3F line, an Orvis mid arbor BBS II with a DT5F line, and a Lamson Radius 3.5 with a WF7F line.
I suppose that just standing there looking for a point where a given rod / reel / line combination “balanced”, I would have come up with three different balance points. However, in the dynamic process of casting, I really don’t remember thinking any of the three combinations was not balanced.
John
P.S. In deference to those who do not like full sized pics in posts, I’m using the thumbnail method. Don’t count on it ever happening again.
Gotta say, I’m with Sully on this one. If the reel has no part in it, and the line is everything, then the whole setup would only balance at one casting distance. Because any shorter, and you dont have enough line out the top to balance it, and any longer, the extra line is going to throw it out of whack again.
The only time I really pay any attention to the balance of a rod is when I am carrying it along a trail between fishing spots. Then, with the line reeled in, I like the balance point to be somewhere about my forefinger on the grip. Casting, the line is in and out and the “balance point” changes accordingly, not that I notice anything. And the BEST balance point is when there is a five pound trout off the pointy end!
Now, THAT is a well balanced setup!
Rod balance is the concept that a rod is less tiring to cast and fish when a certain weight of line and reel on the reel seat counteracts the weight of the lever arm of the rod. That is the concept that a rod is perfectly balanced when it is neither tip light or tip heavy. I think this is wrong, wrong, wrong, for reasons I give later.
Charles Ritz, a championship caster is correct. You can place the reel on the ground, put the line through the rod guides, and the rod will feel fine casting without a reel on the rod. I think he also said at one time that you could cast further in championship contests without a reel on the rod because then all the energy could go toward energizing the rod and line rather than moving the reel. When I first read this comment by Charles Ritz, I actually went outdoors and casted line without the reel on the rod and Ritz was and is correct in my opinion.
I agree with those of you that said that casting is a dynamic process and any “balance” is changed by how much line is outside the rod and therefore not on the reel. This also is true after the cast. Most of the line that is out of the rod when we are fishing is on the water and only the line from the water to the rod tip adds weight to the rod tip. Therefore an outfit that starts perfectly balanced ends up tip heavy when we fish.
When fishing, especially when high sticking, balance becomes very important. When we hold the rod in an extended arm and with the tip way up, keeping line off of the water, a tip heavy rod is very tiresome because it naturally wants to be in a tip down attitude and you have to hold it tip up.
For that reason I like the lightest rods and the lightest reels for a given length or rod and line. For me they are the least tiring to cast and fish. I want a natural tip up attitude or “balance” because I think this is the easiest to cast (most of the time the tip is up when we cast), and it is often tip up when we fish.
Perfectly balanced (neither tip up or tip down balance, neutral balanced) rods are not desirable, because we normally cast with the rod tip up and as the line leaves the rod, the rod becomes relatively more tip heavy as we cast more line. A rod that begins tip light is better IMHO.
I want to start with an out of balanced rod and reel outfit that is tip light. I think that is easiest to cast and fish. The less weight that is at the end of a lever arm, the easier that lever is to cast, carry and fish with.
I reckon it all depends on what is meant by balance (it depends on what your definition of “is” is :D)
To me, balance is that combination of rod, reel and line that casts well and feels good in the hand. Also, there’s a “visual” balance. A reel that is too small looks funny on a large rod and a large reel looks funny on a small 3 wt rod.
I’ve never paid much attention to the “finger balance point” of a rod but more how the combination feels in my hand while casting and how accurately I can cast with a given set up.
Jeff
Rod balance is the concept that a rod is less tiring to cast and fish when a certain weight of line and reel on the reel seat counteracts the weight of the lever arm of the rod. That is the concept that a rod is perfectly balanced when it is neither tip light or tip heavy. I think this is wrong, wrong, wrong, for reasons I give later.
Charles Ritz, a championship caster is correct. You can place the reel on the ground, put the line through the rod guides, and the rod will feel fine casting without a reel on the rod. I think he also said at one time that you could cast further in championship contests without a reel on the rod because then all the energy could go toward energizing the rod and line rather than moving the reel. When I first read this comment by Charles Ritz, I actually went outdoors and casted line without the reel on the rod and Ritz was and is correct in my opinion.
I agree with those of you that said that casting is a dynamic process and any “balance” is changed by how much line is outside the rod and therefore not on the reel. This also is true after the cast. Most of the line that is out of the rod when we are fishing is on the water and only the line from the water to the rod tip adds weight to the rod tip. Therefore an outfit that starts perfectly balanced ends up tip heavy when we fish.
When fishing, especially when high sticking, balance becomes very important. When we hold the rod in an extended arm and with the tip way up, keeping line off of the water, a tip heavy rod is very tiresome because it naturally wants to be in a tip down attitude and you have to hold it tip up.
For that reason I like the lightest rods and the lightest reels for a given length or rod and line. For me they are the least tiring to cast and fish. I want a natural tip up attitude or “balance” because I think this is the easiest to cast (most of the time the tip is up when we cast), and it is often tip up when we fish.
Perfectly balanced (neither tip up or tip down balance, neutral balanced) rods are not desirable, because we normally cast with the rod tip up and as the line leaves the rod, the rod becomes relatively more tip heavy as we cast more line. A rod that begins tip light is better IMHO. The less weight that is at the end of a lever arm, the easier that lever is to cast, carry and fish with.
I’m in the lightest possible camp too.
You never have a balanced rod while you fishing it. If carrying it is the issue, then lighter is always better to my mind.
To many variables to balance it.
Buddy
I’m with Sully, Cold, and DG. I do not buy the Ritz statement at all. I think it’s probably a persoal thing. I doubt any ONE answer is going to satisfy everyone. With the rod balanced at the base of the high sign finger of my casting hand, with no line out and reel on…works for me. Carries easy for walking long distances, and I have no trouble casting with it that I know of. Works for me. I don’t think an ounce or even 2 will matter much either way. Too far off and you get into the tip heavy or reel heavy area.
I actually balance my rods on a thin metal book end. I hang a plastic soda pop bottle cut in half, a hole punched on each side with twine to hang it with. I hang it off the exact center of the reel seat where the reel I will use WOULD BE. Yes, I mark both the grip and the reel seat with a pencil. I set the rod on the grip mark…I fill the bottle with coins till I get balance, weigh it, and subtract 1.5 ounces to allow for the addition of the line weight when it will be added to the reel. I want a reel wgt to somewhat match the wgt that balanced minus the 1.5. But I only want to be in the ballpark. Not exackery spot on. Just a reference point to aim for. But that’s just me. I KNOW the majority of the fly fishermen I know go for the lightest reel they can use on a rod.
To each his own I think.
Jim
The only problem is …your test proves NOTHING! Its NOT a real world situation. How many fly rods have you seen …IN USE that DIDNT have a reel attached??? Leave the reel off and also remove the line. See how much “lighter” the rod feels now??? It doesnt prove a thing.
I agree with those of you that said that casting is a dynamic process and any “balance” is changed by how much line is outside the rod and therefore not on the reel. This also is true after the cast. Most of the line that is out of the rod when we are fishing is on the water and only the line from the water to the rod tip adds weight to the rod tip. Therefore an outfit that starts perfectly balanced ends up tip heavy when we fish.
True!
When fishing, especially when high sticking, balance becomes very important. When we hold the rod in an extended arm and with the tip way up, keeping line off of the water, a tip heavy rod is very tiresome because it naturally wants to be in a tip down attitude and you have to hold it tip up.
For that reason I like the lightest rods and the lightest reels for a given length or rod and line. For me they are the least tiring to cast and fish. I want a natural tip up attitude or “balance” because I think this is the easiest to cast (most of the time the tip is up when we cast), and it is often tip up when we fish.
Perfectly balanced (neither tip up or tip down balance, neutral balanced) rods are not desirable, because we normally cast with the rod tip up and as the line leaves the rod, the rod becomes relatively more tip heavy as we cast more line. A rod that begins tip light is better IMHO. The less weight that is at the end of a lever arm, the easier that lever is to cast, carry and fish with.
And for the reasons you state is why I prefer MY rod to be no more than a neutral balance and SLIGHTLY butt heavy with the reels I have for them.
These are my thoughts on the subject of the combination of Fly Rod, Fly Fishing Reel & Fly Line.
It is impossible to perfectly balance the combination of the three components that comprise the Fly Rod Assembly (Rod. Reel, Line)! When in use the whole assembly “Center of Gravity” is constantly shifting. When fly line is release for the cast the weight shifts toward the rod tip, when the line is retrieved onto the real, the weight shift back toward the butt of the fly rod.
If you are building your own fly rod, you could determine where the fulcrum (Pivot Point) with Reel (loaded with Fly Line attached) is along the length of the Fly Rod. Before installing the Reel Seat Cap, you could insert metal rod inside the Rod Blank at the base of the Fly Rod, underneath the Reel Seat portion. I prefer the pivot point (fulcrum) to located where the thumb of my casting hand in located on the Handle Grip.
As for the difference between the use of various fly lines (Weight Forward, Double Taper, or Weighted Sinking Lines/Sinking Tips) on the Fly Rod, there is no difference during the casting. They all weight the same in the first 30 feet of the fly line, that is what the weight system is all about.
When casting, the more line you cast out, the weight and “Center of Gravity” moves forward.
As for the fly line selection;
“Weight Forward”. the weight is only in the first 30 feet of the fly line, behind the tapered end. The remaining line is a shooting line of less weight and diameter.
“Double Taper”, the whole line is uniform in weight, with to tapered ends. So the Double Tapered line, will shift shift the weight forward more in the cast than the “Weight Forward” line when more than 30 feet of line is cast.
Weighted Line/Sinking Tips: Same weight classification, the only difference is that there is less flotation in the fly line, allowing the fly line to sink at a specific rate of feet/second. With Weight Lines/Sinking Tips, you need to do a “Roll Cast” to return your line back to the water surface before recasting. To fail in Roll Casting before attempting to recast the submerged line, will over time cause the stress fractures in the fly rod blank, causing the inevitable destruction of the fly rod.
Fly Rods (with reel and line) are in constant flux when you as the angler are suppling the kinetic energy (casting), which is also referred to as “Moments of Inertia”!
It is nice that I finally got to use my classes in “Mechanical Engineering” while attend Vocational School for Mechanical Drafting and Design Technology!
~Parnelli
Most important thing to consider when building or buying a fly rod is the handle grip, diameter & shape. They must match your hand grip diameter & shape. The hand/hand grip connections, is the most important aspect of the fly casting motions and how the fly rod and fly line respond during the cast. If you have to exert pressure on the handle grip to control your fly rod, then that slows down your casting motion, and you lose control of the cast with slower starts and stops. If you only have to hold the fly rod while casting, your casting motion is faster, and the control of the start and stop of the cast are more precise.
I wrote an article for FAOL, when I built my first fly rod (a Gatti). Custom Grips (Determining the Shape
and Size of a Cork Handle)
10% of the time we are casting and 90% of the time we are fishing. I hate to fish with either a tip-heavy or butt-heavy rod, it just wears me out. What I do is try to balance the rod in my hand for when I’m fishing (mostly by reel selection). Some will have you believe this is an impossibility since the amount of fly line you have out changes the balance point…well not when your fishin’! You can have 100’ or 10’ of line out of the tip-top, but the same amount of line is hanging from your tip-top to the water’s surface. Also a slight variation in balance is no big deal, since your grip changes all the time and a 1/4 inch up or down changes the balance point.
My balanced rod actually feels lighter. Take 5lb 2x4 and carry it at the balance point. Now take the same 2x4 and carry it by one end…same 5 lbs but which feels lighter? My balanced rods cast the same in my hands as either a tip or butt heavy rod, I’ve tried it both ways. Even if I didn’t, I would trade some casting proficiency for comfort while fishing. Just my opinion.