How much fly line out of rod to cast ok?

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

Ok friends. Well…enemies too if you don’t mind. Another question from the mannequin here. The dummy with the wooden head.

I have been collecting rods, reels and lines for a few years now. Now I am trying to put them together. I am wondering if a few of you brains out there can help me.

I wonder what the specs mean…to me…on fly lines. They list different lengths of running lines, tapers, bellies, etc. How much of what do you have to have out of the rod to load the rod and false cast and then cast…by really loading the rod? What does it take to load the rod?

Example…I have a Rio Classic WF5F floating line that says:

<running line 61’><back taper 4.5’><body or belly 28.3’><front taper 6.7’><tip .5’>

How many feet of the above specs do I have to have out the end of the rod…(the right half end of the specs) to be casting to fish? Can I cast to 15’…or does enough of the line have to be out that I can only cast as close as say 25’?

Because…I have a Sharkskin WF6F floating line that says:
<running line 46’><head length 54’><rear taper 13’><belly {1}15.5’>
<belly {2} front taper 9’><tip .5’>

How many feet of THIS line do I have to have out to fish with the line?

And I have a Rio Classic Double Taper that says:
<tip .5’><taper 8’><body 73’><taper 8’><tip .5’>

I asked because a pretty intelligent fellow at coffee this morning looked at the sharkskin box and said wow…x amount of this and that…and said it would only be good for big rivers because it would have to have so much line out to be effective. In other words not a good line for our trout lakes and streams.

I dunno. So I am asking you guys. I don’t want to reel up a line that is no good for my area. I guess sorta dumb question but not. I have fished WF’s and know I can use them. I have not fished a Sharkskin. My friend has me convinced it is worthless for here. So I reckon I better load the reel with the WF line.

Would one only be good for me here locally with my trout streams and lakes…and would one need so much line out that it would only be good for BIG rivers which I don’t have?

I only have one reel to put a floating line on…and I don’t know which one to install.

2

Simple answer: You can fish with any amount of line out.

Complex answer: there is no simple formula or rule of thumb.

Some observations:

You don’t actually need a line to load a rod. Pick up a rod and make a casting motion. Notice the bend. If it has a bend, it has a load. It unloads by unbending.

Weight Forward lines generally work best for distance casting when the entire head and back taper are outside the rod tip. With less line out they still work for shorter casts but do not shoot as well. Most stream fishing for trout is done with less than the entire head outside the rod. Even 1 and 2wt lines usually have a head length of at least 26 feet.

Rods usually work optimally with some load, but will work well with a range of loads. This is good because we make different length casts, otherwise we would need a different line for each distance we cast.

With less line out, the rod will not load as much. This is why many anglers go to a line weight 1 or 2 wts heavier if they are going to be doing mostly a lot of short range casting.

Much of this is subjective. Hand a rod to angler A and he may hate it with line X and love it with line Y. Angler B may have the opposite preference.

Lines with shorter front tapers are usually optimized for delivering and turning over bulky/heavy loads. Examples would by nymph, bass bug, pike, and clouser taper lines. Lines with longer front tapers are usually optimized for delicate delivery. Examples would be specialized trout, spring creek and bonefish lines. Lines with longer back tapers are often optimized for long distance casting or mending such as with distance tapers or steelhead/salmon tapers. Lines with a 26 -38ft head, short back taper and long thin running line are often designed for long distance casting. Examples would be Teeny lines, SA Streamer Express, Rio Outbound to name a few.

I have fished plenty of times with only the leader outside the rod, especially with furled leaders. The casting motion alone creates enough load to cast the leader and small fly.

3

I am sure there will be more responses, let’s see if I can sum this up and keep a short thread.

The portion of the line that determines the designated weight is the first 30’, NOT INCLUDING the front taper. These (and most lines) have a front taper of 12 - 14 ft. Assuming you have an 8.5ft rod, you will reach the 20’ target using only the lighter, tapered, part of the line to load the rod. This usually means an open loop unless you have a very quick cast. If you never cast beyond 25ft it almost doesn’t matter which of these lines you use.

However if you are casting beyond 25ft most of the time the best line is the one rated for the rod being used.

The information you did not provide is the designation of the rod. If the rod is small (7.5ft 4 wt for instance) it will load with the 5wt line at short distances, but not work well beyond about 30ft or so as the line will over-flex the rod and probably cause a tailing loop. The 6wt line would definitely be to much.

Generally speaking, the difference in line weights is about 7ft per size. That is to say, 20ft of the 6wt line will weigh as much as 27ft of the 5wt line. This is why some people use the next greater line size if they are always casting short, as the added weight using on a short line is still enough to load the rod.

Tell us more about your equipment choices.
PS, why is it you have 801 posts and this question is still on your mind? Just curious,
Greg

4

Jim,

I think you are taking fly fishing and making it too technical. Just match the fly line weight to the fly rod and go fishing. Most of the time, when trout fishing, you will only have about 50 feet of line out the end of the rod and sometimes less. Spend more time with putting the fly on the target and fly presentation and forget how much line you have out.

Just my 2 cents of a dollar and nothing more…

5

There is some variability to this as it depends on the line and where you measure it. The following quote was posted by Bruce Richards of S.A. on another board a few years ago. "I have cut WF lines at 40 ft. and weighed them. Each 5 ft. of belly equals about one more line size. "

Regardless of whether it is 3ft, 5ft, or 7ft, this is an important concept for fly casters to understand.

6

Loading the rod simply means making it bend. Therefore, just the casting motion will start the loading. Adding some mass in the form of the line will load it more.

As for casting, you can use any amount of the head out of the tip top depending upon how far you want to cast. For a short line, use a short stroke. The longer the line (cast) you will use a longer stroke.

The head in the line you were describing was about 40 ft give or take a little (don’t add the tip, just the rear and front taper and belly for head length). The running line is the rest of the thinner line. Sounds like you using a weight forward line.

For a weight forward line, depending upon your ability, you may be able to carry all of the 40 ft head outside the tip top and perhaps a little of the running line and cast well. Once you get too much running line outside the tip top (called overhang) you may find the line start to hinge and you will lose your loop as there is not enough mass of line to carry the wt back into the rod and load it.

7

GregH --If I am not mistaken, I think the front taper is included in the head length. I believe the tip that is in front of that – usually not very long, is what is not included. The weight designation of the head is therefore the first 30 ft of the head excluding the tip.

The first 30 ft of a wt. forward floater for a 5 wt line is the exact same( with a +/- 6 grain tolerance) weight as for a sink tip line because only the first 30 ft. is measured.

8

Your friends prolly right about the sharkskin line being useless in AZ;) The good news is that the Sharkskin line works just fine on our waters here in Maine. Just say the word and I’ll be happy to take the line off your hands. Heck I’d even be willing to PAY a few dollars for it.

9

Well hindsight is always better. I should have made the question more simple…but I didn’t realize it was so simple till I talked about it.

The main question is this, is this Sharkskin fly line I have ok to use in my normal waters…which are lakes and small streams…where I would use ANY WF line…?

The reason for the question is, you see all the specs on the back of the box. I tend to ignore them and go fish. The data must be worth something…

But the point is I was going to load it onto my fly reel to see what a sharkskin was like. My friend mumbled something about the length of this and that listed on the box and said it was no good for around here. On a big river maybe…

Well I happen to value his opinion highly. I comes home thinking I might as well shelve the Sharkskin and put on the normal WF line.

But I wanted to ask you guys your opinions. I did not know how to interpret the specs to be able to ascertain what my friend apparently did…

I just don’t want to put on a line only to find out it is for a more different type of fishing than I do…and I really don’t want or need the line.

I guess I can just put it on the reel and go find out what I think about it.

As for you Greg…what difference does it make how many posts I have? Did you read them all to find out if this was ever asked by me…thereby insuating I should already know the answer? Why did you even bother to go see how many posts I have made? It should be pretty darned obvious I asked the question because I didn’t know the answer. If you think after all my posts I should know everything…then why did YOU bother to even answer? Just curious.

You can guess which list you are going on in my private messages folder. I don’t know what was going through your mind when you posted such stuff. But it was obviously not intended to be a friendly post…and more than likely some kind of insuation…of which could be any number of negative things. I see NOTHING positive about it. You have made yourself an enemy of mine. You are now number two on my ignore list. Therefore…I will no longer see any of your posts. Done deal.

10

You are correct and Greg is incorrect. The taper is included in the first 30 feet. My goodness, if it wasn’t, we would have a lot of line to “balance” the rod. As you said , there is a level section of line in front of the taper to which you can nail knot the leader. Usually it is about 6 inches to give you some play if you need to cut an old nail knot off.

To Gemrod:

The taper has nothing to do with the weight rating of the line. It could be a level line with no taper and still be the same weight designation such as a 6 wt L line vs a 6 wt DT line vs a 6 wt Wf line. So that intelligent guy in the coffee shop was full of donuts but not intelligence about fly lines.

There are just main 3 independent properties of a fly line that you definitely need to know. The first is the weight rating that tells you the weight or mass of the first 30 feet of fly line in grains. See this AFTMA TABLE.

The second is density and that determines whether the line floats or sinks and how fast it sinks.

Aa long as the line is not a level line, the least important is taper. There are specialty tapers but they are not as important as getting the weight and the density correct.

No one always fishes with exactly 30 feet of line, so fly rods may have a single weight designation; but they will handle 2 or 3 different weights of fly line. Some folks that fish in small creeks will purposely use a heavier line, because shorter lengths of the heavier line will be closer to the rod’s sweet spot for casting.

Casting style has a lot to do with how a rod will feel with a certain line. So the line rating is a guide, but you are the judge of what is best for you. You apparently have a 5 and a 6 wt line so try both on your rod. Try the DT also. For shorter casts you may like the 6 wt and for longer the 5 wt. It is up to you to decide what you like.

You said that you only had one reel, but I suggested that you cast the lines before deciding what is best. How do you do that with only one reel? The obvious answer is that you don’t need to even put the line on the reel to test cast it.

Put the line storage spool on the ground and take the line off the spool. Put it through your rod guides and measure the line so that 30 feet are just outside the tip top guide of the rod. The tie a string around the line at about where you would hold it in your non rod hand. Pull in the line and start casting. See how it feels with when you are casting 30 feet. Try shorter casts to see how the rod loads when “underlined”.

Try all your lines. Then put the one that feels the best on that reel. First load the reel backward by putting the line on first then enough backing so you leave 1/4 inch of free space from the spool edge. Now reverse the backing and the line, and you will have the exact correct amount of backing for your reel.

11

what sharkskin line is it?

12

The Sharkskin line is OK for shorter casts. Is is a line that is able to cast long because of its coating minimizes frictional losses. HOwever, you don’t need to cast long with it.

I don’t know exactly what your friend is talking about when he says it is good only in certain waters. He may have meant that because it is an expensive line, you should save it for when you are fishing longer casts more often. I really think he meant that you are wasting money by fishing it where you don’t need the longer casts. I kind of agree that it is overkill on waters that don’t need the super casting performance of the sharkskin.

If you most of your casts are no longer that 30 feet of line + leader + rod, which ends up being between a 40 and 50 foot cast, the DT line might be the one but try them all. It will be good experience.

13

Silver,

Thank yoou for the excellent explanation. No, my friend was behaving as if he had calculated the numbers and his opinion was that it was for long casting. Sort of like you can’t work it at 20-40’. He didn’t say that…but he implied it would be a good line for big rivers which we don’t have.

That had me thinking that it is not a correct line for our area. The specs are posted on the back of some boxes, and Rio puts them all in a catalog. This data or specs if you will are surely meant to mean information to go by for fly fishermen. If not they sure waste a lot of resources collecting the data and printing it. It appears to mean something about how that line will behave.

Well I don’t know how to decode that information…so I took my friends word as gospel. I already had it loaded on my reel. I decided to take it off and put on a plain WF floater.

It still seems to me that all that data is meant to help keep us informed. But I again don’t know what it means to casting. So I asked.

Nice explanation. I actually have lot’s of reels. I was trying to put one reel in a pouch with four spools. Had them all on spools…a fast sink, an intermediate sink, a sink tip…and then I came to the choice on the floater. I am going to put the Rio on to go with the set.

I will put the Sharkskin on another 6wt reel. Then I can play with all of them. I originally was thinking I had a line of no use to me but of value to someone else. So I put it up for sale.

Due to your sensible explanation I am going to keep it. I will try to pull the for sale post. I have never sold anything on the board before.

Thank you everyone for your efforts at helping me understand.

Gypsy, you do not need to know what line it is. Due to your smart alec remark above, that you thought was so cute, you are now number 3 on my ignore list. I will not ever be able to see anything you post anymore, such is how I want it. Nothing pushes my buttons more than some holier than thou person talking down their nose to some underling to make them look like a fool, or just wise crack smart alec remarks. I detest such people deeply.

I respect gratefully and acknowledge people that attempt to help a fellow with a question. Your post was nothing but a smart alec remark, with the intent to show your higher intelligence, and to make me look like a fool. Your post has absolutely no value to anyone, except to us…because it shows your colors. Greg’s post was simply a put down. No need for any of that. His last paragraph was of no value to anyone also. Just a zinger. He sure did read a lot of my thread and do a lot of research on it to make a comment though. Oh well. I won’t be able to see his future posts at all. What a wonderful feature of FAOL to just eliminate people you don’t like. Nice feature.

I think Warren was right that I was being too technical. I am naturally that way. I thought there was a code to interpreting all those belly lengths and tapers. Now I understand that they do really affect the way a fly line behaves. But it does not mean it is such a long line that it is not effective from 20-50’. I thought I had a useless line. I’ve learned to not take it so seriously. Just go fish and find out. forget the specs. Good Idea!

I think now I will just put the lines on and go fish. If I like…I like. If not…I switch.

Thanks again everyone.

14

jim,

take a look at the fly lines in the link below

http://www.cortlandline.com/products/default.asp?id=95

it will explain the ‘head’ ‘front taper’ etc etc etc

15

If there are sharks in those lakes and streams you will be fine. If not, you will HAVE to buy the latest lake and stream line…

Come on guys…it is fishing…if the rod casts the line and feels the way YOU want it to feel, who cares what the box says. String the bad boy up and go fishing.

Brad

16

Ahah, now I know what your friend meant by “too far”. If you are casting consistently less than 30 ft of fly line (meaning about a 45 ft cast), you should consider putting on a line that is one wt. heavier than the rod rating.

Do the experiment with casting your lines but put the thread marker on your line at the distance of what your average cast would be. Don’t forget to add on the distance that the rod and leader would give you. So to cast out 30 ft you might only need 16 feet of line outside the guides once you add the length of the rod and the leader.

17

Gemrod

With all due respect, after reading this my head hurts. I feel you are thinking about this stuff way too much and too deep. There has been some good advice given. I normally don’t worry too much about how much line I have out in order to load the rod properly. When casting the rod will let me know. Short casts are different then long casts. Bottom line is when I am fishing, as long as I am putting my fly on the target I am casting to, I normally don’t think a whole lot about casting when I am fishing.

Go out have fun and catch some fish!

Just my 2 cents.

18

Just some of my observations…

I think understanding line anatomy is important…and to that end IMO casting teachers should start out by giving newbies an explanation of fly line anatomy.

I remember when I started I didn’t pay any attention and could not understand why when aerializing more and more line my casting would deteriorate…once I knew that aerializing running line takes a certain level of skill the light went on.

It’s pretty obvious when one hits the sweet spot of a particular line and rod…and it’s usually around 30 + ft.

Some very good explanations above.:cool:

19

Yes Duck, there is good information here. I appreciate all the help. It’s sorta like the spine thing. I could not let it go until I understood it, as so many people described it differently.

Once I found out the how and why of a spine…I decided I didn’t care anymore. It has extremely minimal effect on a fly rod.

I got’er now man. Thanks to the above help. I will not try to formulate a theory from the specs of a line. Just go fish. A friend got me concerened because a Sharkskiin is not cheap…and after his comments I became concerned about soiling and wasting a brand new line.

I understand this is one of those areas where the information is helpful, but don’t worry too much about it.

I am done with it. Happy camper.

Norm, thanks for the link. I feel compelled to describe my experience with the famous Cortland 444 Peach which comes up on your link. I was using a brand new one on the San Juan and after fishing awhile 5’ of the end began to sink. Retrieved it twice and treated it, and it continued to commence to sink after fishing a bit. A friend said here, take that off, and haded me his reel with a 5wt line on it. Fished the entire rest of the day with not so much as even the tip of the line sinking. The interruption of attempting to fish with a line with 5-8’ of floating line sinking…became a totally non issue the rest of the day. Was able to concentrate on fishing from that point on.

I asked my friend what line it was. He said it was a Rio Grande.

I am sold on Rio’s now.

Thanks for all the help. I am done with it now.

Gained two more enemies though. Think someday when the list get’s big enough…I will post it…just for excitement and grins. Gotta have a little spice on here once in awhile…I think.

Jim

20

That should be “NOT INCLUDING any level section before the front taper.”