Hookless Fishing

FAOL Community Fly Anglers Online
1

Was at the doctor’s last Friday and while in the waiting room thumbing through a magazine that I don’t normally read but drew my interest (from the other magazines in the waiting room), saw the following article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7689/is_201002/ai_n49424142/

Kind of misleading because its not entirely “hookless” but an interesting take on minimizing the potential of fatally injuring fish.

Just in case this has been debated before, I am not trying to re-enflame those debates, just found it interesting and wondered what others think.

Paul

2

Silver Creek had a warm Summer a few years ago and the Conservancy asked not to play the fish so i cut the hook off at the bend and had a great day. Since i fish dry it was easy to see if you had a strike and in most cases you felt the tug though it was short lived.

3

Sorry Gandalf, but there s nothing ‘hookless’ about this system. Not to fire anything up, but this is the ‘new’ Moffitt snagging system that does more harm than good, and it has been debated here several times, in fact just in the last week there was a ‘discussion’ about this setup.

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?34630-Foul-hooking-catch-and-release&highlight=moffitt

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?34577-Moffitt-Angling-System&highlight=moffitt

I’m sure I am probably too opinionated about this, but I guess you either like it or not, and I don’t like it. I, like Buddy, think it’s a bit too gimmickey. I hear the guides in Alaska love the method, since they’ve been doing it with ‘pegged’ beads imitating fish eggs, and they catch a lot of fish. Moffitt seems to have just mutated this to use other types of flies beyond the eggs they use in Alaska. I’m sure there are many here who have used this method and I would love to hear their opinions as to it’s effectiveness and the ethics of it in their view.
As for me, I’ll continue to use tried and true methods for foolng fish as they seem to work quite well.

Kelly

4

I agree with Kelly, this nothing more than a snagging system disguised as fly fishing.

5

“Moffitt knew there had to be a better way to hook-and-release fish, so he studied it tirelessly for eight years, using his engineering background to develop an innovative catch-and-release system.”

You guys really think this is a gimmick and just another way to snag fishies ?? Really ??

6

E-Mail from Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. Yup, it’s snagging in this state.

Thank you for your email correspondence to the Washington Department of Fish and
Wildlife (WDFW) Fish Program. We apologize for the delay in our response.

We have had a few inquiries regarding the Moffitt Angling System. This method of
fishing would be considered snagging, which is illegal in Washington State. As
per the Definitions of Terms used throughout the pamphlet, snagging is defined
as follows: Snagging - Attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a
way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth… In
freshwater, it is illegal to possess any fish hooked anywhere other than inside
the mouth or on the head.

The regulations in other states may require the fish to voluntarily strike the
fly in order to be hooked, but Washington’s rules specifically say that the fish
must voluntarily take the hook (not the fly) in its mouth.

If you have further questions, please email again or call (360) 902-2700. Our
Customer Service hours are 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday through Friday.
We hope this information helps.
Sincerely,
Fish Program

REE

7

Kelly, if you read my post, I did say it was misleading because it was not really “hookless”. Sorry that I missed the discussion the past couple of times around, it took flashy pictures to catch my eye that reading the forum here did not.

In a way, I think the idea of the fish being hooked only at the mouth is a good idea, it makes it easier to get the fish off the hook and back into the water, vs. the potential of hooking a fish deeper and having to decide if leaving the hook in will do more damage than trying to retrieve it. That said, that does not mean I endorse Moffit’s specific rig, just saying that if there is any method of ensuring you hook the mouth vs. the tried and true way which can allow the fish to swallow the hook deeper, it would probably be worth investigating if it really is less harmful.

I really did not mean to start up any hostilities, I really am on the fence over this issue. On one hand, I can see that it is potentially a benefit, on the otherhand, I assume that you can also catch other parts of the fish body with the hook and potentially cause even more serious injury. Obviously, you want to obey all local laws, afterall, treble hooks (I don’t know of any Flies that are based around treble hooks) are banned from some areas, yet they are perfectly legal in most areas (at least in my neck of the woods) not to mention that for non-FF’ers that would severly limit the kinds of baits used, if localities were to make them illegal in larger numbers.

Paul

8

Paul, I’m sorry if you took my post as confrontational, it wasn’t meant that way. I think this ‘idea’ will be debated for a while. As far as how fish are hooked, I’m all for minimizing stress to fish, although we all know this is a ‘blood’ sport and nothing is for certain. This Moffitt method though appears to ‘nsag’ the fish outside of the mouth which is why several states have labeled it as ‘snagging’ and therefore banned it as an acceptable method of fishing. It may prove to be a better method to minimize fish mortality, but only time and participation will tell. As for me, I’ll stick with what has worked so well for so many years. I’m willing to put up my tried and true against this ‘new’ method and I’m really confident that I’ll hold my own. As an aside, in my 40+ years of flyfishing I have never, not once ever, had to cut off a fly and leave it in a fish because it was hooked too deep, that being said, I’m sure this has happened to others, but it seems pretty rare.
Your reference to this is good, in that more and more of us will take a look at this and make our own informed decisions.
Thanks,

Kelly.

9

Apology not accepted because it was not warranted (here you go, save it for when you need it :slight_smile: ). I did not really take your post as confrontational, just pointing out that despite my thread title, I did acknowledge that the method is not really “hookless”. I did take it from your post and others that this is a contentious issue, I did not quite realize how contentious it was because I did not follow those other threads, but now I know. I was not trying to be confrontational back, just explaining how I see things, right, wrong or indifferent. I like the idea of not causing the fish too much bodily harm (agree, it is a blood sport, but like boxing there are ways to minimize mortality rates to the bare minimum) and any method that can accomplish that should be looked at. New technologies may make it possible to have some kind of waterproof sticky material that sticks to the fish’s mouth and not stick to its esophagus if it swallows it further. I don’t know of anything, just speculating. That said, Moffit’s rig might meet the definition of snagging in all 50 states plus DC and if snagging is illegal in all those places, the choice is simple, unless you have special permission to use it for research purposes (or whatever) follow the rules and you won’t get in trouble. I don’t think anyone will disagree with that, whether they are pro-Moffit or anti-Moffit.

I will admit, I do more “bait” fishing than fly fishing and I have had a few fish, since getting back into fishing a few years ago, take a worm or other small bait, too deep for me to retrieve and I had to cut the line and leave the hook in. Confession time: I have also, just once mind you, inadvertantly snagged a fish. I fished a lot when I was a kid and I do not remember ever snagging a fish (but my memory is not so good anymore), so I was surprised at having it happen, a couple of years ago on Father’s Day while fishing with my son no less, when I brought the small fish in and found that he did not try to swallow the lure yet was hooked to my lure. I was using an aritficial lure and was reeling it back in and I guess the fish got in the path of the lure and I snagged it, right above the eye. Certainly not my intention, but I guess I will forever be a “snagger”. :wink: Please forgive me.

Paul

10

Paul, thanks. I don’t know if this issue will go away soon, or if it will just be rehashed in some form or another over the years. I noticed a bit of debate over use of strike indicators and whether their use dilutes the purity of ‘true’ flyfishing. I guess it comes down to what we’re each comfortable with and does it fit us and our ethics. As for snagging, I have foul-hooked (snagged) my fair share of fish, especially when nymph fishing with multiple-fly rigs, but it has been accidental and not intentional. It happens, and I’m not ashamed to admit it happens. Anyway, I have tried to avoid this debate or dillemma previously, but I felt the need to jump in a bit this time. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. Now, let’s just all go fishin’:D, if I could just develop a method that lasso’s the fish…

Kelly.

11

There you go, choker chain for fish! :slight_smile:

Paul

12

No point in making this one into a mud slinging fest. It’s being discussed to death on many sites. Quite simply, it’s illegal in most states and provinces. It’s nothing more than what we call “Lining” a fish, up here in Ontario…and it’s illegal here. It’s a form of snagging. Until the regulations change…and that won’t be any time soon, I think it’s a dis-service that the magazines (web & hard copy) out there are allowing to advertise this sort of thing. It just goes to show you how desperate they are to make a buck.

How I feel about it? If a fishery allows for more than one fly and they can prove the science that this sort of thing is less harmful than what we do now, in Catch & Release fishing, then maybe the rules can one day be made to accommodate it. Until then…I really don’t want to see it in all of my magazines.

13

Real men catch and release this way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2n3rMmlCrA

True hookless fishing

14

maodiver;

Wild video !! BUT wouldn’t that hurt the fly tying folks ?? lol lol

15

I very respectfully disagree. How is anyone supposed to know about a technique that may potentially be beneficial unless it is put out there? If there are any places where this is legal (I don’t know there are any places or not), why shouldn’t fisherpersons have the option of learning about the technique and using it themselves? How can you prove it is more or less harmful if people don’t actually use it? I would agree that there should be a disclaimer stating that not all areas allow this kind of fishing, etc. But I don’t see any harm in providing the knowledge that there are people working on making fishing potentially safer for C&R.

That is the way I see it, but I do understand your point of view.

Paul

16

ICW never in a lifetime a trout not taking a fly deep…not trying to be inflamatory…just information
I was fishing with my 75+ year old friend Bud M. on a creek with a bank. He was landing a trout, and so I graciously netted it for him…and attempted to remove the fly. It was so deep…my friend said just cut it off. It was a San Juan worm.

Later the same summer fishing with a 75+ year old friend, Bud H. Again I netted the trout for him…and repeat story. It was so deep he also said just cut it off. This one was on an egg pattern.

Both incidents occurred in the same summer. Not a lifetime.

Boaf these friends still around and I can verify my statements.

However…I sometimes think the C & R thing is sometimes a bit overdone. My gawd if you mistreat a trout in ANY inconceivable way you have committed a terrible crime. Heck, there are plenty of fish in water. We don’t catch and release bear, deer, antelope, buffalo, elk, quail, ducks, wolves, coyotes, rabbits, squirrel…etc. WE SHOOT TO KILL! … Then… we use their fur and feathers to sell to fly tyers in stores all over the country. We tie the flies to CATCH TROUT? Well, I don’t hunt anymore. Did. Stopped around 1970.

Anywhooooo…just a thought.

Jim

17

Jim,

I agree that people can get carried away by C&R, but, again very respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that there are a lot of fish out there. Whenever I go fishing, I am lucky to get a bite or two, much less actually see a fish or get one to take what I am throwing at it. That’s proof enough that fish must be getting rare. :wink:

OK, I am pulling your leg some, but in all seriousness everything that I have read or seen says that the numbers of fish are steadily going down from over fishing. Granted, that’s from the commercial boys, I highly doubt weekend anglers are having that great of an effect, but I still think whatever we can do can help.

As I said, I mostly do bait fishing, mostly because I am fishing with my son who needs a lot of my attention (i.e. he’s the one fishing, I’m trying to get him untangled, re-baited, etc. and by the time I get my line in, I have to hand my rod to him while I get him out of whatever mess he’s got his into), and although we don’t get out a lot, over the past few years, I have probably had 3 or 4 leave the hooks in. Plus I probably had 3 or 4 times that many when I was a kid fishing with my dad. Flies may be a different case, I don’t know, yet to catch a fish on a fly, as I said, don’t get out to fish by myself, when I do, the fish don’t like what I’m throwing. :slight_smile:

In regard to C&R, in my case, I practice it for very practical reasons, above and beyond making sure others can enjoy catching a fish again, and that’s because 1) I don’t know when I or my son are going to catch a large enough fish to keep, therefore, I don’t want to carry a cooler full of ice for nothing, and 2) I don’t want to deal with cleaning Mr. Fish. :slight_smile: I will make exceptions, like I’d like to get out on Lake Anna (VA) in my kayak and see about catching wipers for the dinner table, another would be if we went to trout waters, but they’re quite a haul away from me.

Paul

PS, did not see anything inflammatory in your post at all.

18

Thanks Paul. My coments are usually inflammatory and I am trying to change my ways. I also practice catch and release. I never take a camera with me, nor a tape measure. All the pictures I have of fish were taken with someone else’s camera. All but one. I forgot my 10 year old pc camera was detachable to take a pic. Took it to Christmas Tree lake one day. Caught several larger Apache’s before I remembered I had the camera in my shirt pocket. Pic came out pretty good, surprisingly. But never did it again.

It seems to me we raise fish to put in the waters. How could we EVER run out? Couple of years ago the Manager at a hatchery, one of the smallest in AZ by the way…said they had 30,000 Apache fingerlings they were raising. We don’t raise elk, deer, bighorn sheep…yada yada and turn them loose every year for people to shoot. But we do raise fish to stock for the people.

Anywhoooo…glad it was not taken offensively. I did not know GOOD C&R techniques when I started fly fishing. I have learned a lot since. Now I try not to take them out of the water at all. I just don’t like killing things for my sporting pleasure. I stopped hunting 40 years ago. I’ve heard barbless hooks to tie on are expensive. I cannot afford expensive…but am going to take a look at it. To me it’s the Thrill Of The HUNT to try to fool a fish. Stalking…oooops…against the law? <grin>

I only caught bluegill 52 yrs ago and they were not so sensitive. I was not aware how timid and sensitive trout were to being handled. So now I do much better at it. The C7R that is.

Usually when my mind pops of with a sort of devil’s advocate thought, and I post it…I get shot at and put down.

Thank you Paul for stating at least you didn’t take it as inflammatory. I am not used to that acceptance. <grin>

Made my day.

Jim

19

Jim, you don’t need to tie on barbless hooks to get a barbless hook. Tie on any old hook and then mash down the barb.

My daughter is a vegan (yes, it’s a pain in the neck when she gets my fly fishing habit in her sights, so to speak). So she challenged me to try fly fishing with a fly but no hook and see if I liked the feeling of just fooling the fish. Well, I tried it. And I liked fooling them with dries and liked the little itty bitty tug. But I really missed the feeling of a normal take so I’m back to hooks.

20

Well hello Ms. Diane. Glad to see you are on the board. I went to your old site and got nowhere. Haven’t know how to contact you since.

My intent is not to switch to totally barbless. I have heard that in two places they run cotton over your fly and if it snags you are busted.

I have been told this about fishing in Mountain Home, Arkansas. I have been planning to go to it this year…but looks like I will miss it. Anywhoooo I was told they do some very delicate test…forget what…something like the cotton thing. I definitely do not want to get a ticket. I cannot afford one.

I pinch my barbs down the best I can. But pretty sure not every barb I pinch down will for sure not snag a piece of cotton.

Well, just thought about it. I can pinch it down myself…and test it before I fish with it! Never thought of that.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Jim