I was really kinda sorry that Mustad came out with the Signature series.
While the fly shop pushed their chemically sharpened hooks. I bought Mustads. The minute the Signature Series hit; I heard; “See we told you those hooks aren’t as sharp as blah hooks.”
I figured once I’d drug my nymph hook through the bottom of the stream, or smashed my steamer up against a rock, or caught my dry fly on a rock, or caught a couple of fish—my hook, any hook; will need a quick sharpening.
Yep, look in my hook files and you will see TMC 200, what a neat shaped hook; and my old eyes like the big eye hooks in the small sizes.
“When it comes right down to it, I guess I choose hooks as much for how they make the flies look as for their performance…They make me happy, and I think they catch more fish,although I couldn’t tell you why or explain why ratty-looking flies catch fish too.” From John Gierach’s book: Good Flies.
Swing hard, in case they throw the ball where you’re swinging. Duke Snider
McManus -
I guess I don’t understand your comment about wishing Mustad never introduced the Signature series?
The Mustad classic fly hooks are quite popular with tiers as they offer great value and a product that has proven itself over many years. That being said, there wer tiers who specifically wanted “premium” hooks with “chemically sharpened” needlepoints. So, instead of being a me too like all the other premium offerings, Mustad reinvented the fly hook. While all of the Signature series hooks offer the premium points that some tiers demand, the series also offers true proportionality. This can not be said for any other hooks on the market. What this means is that if you look at a particular hook model, the size 2 will have exactly the same shape as the size 28 in that same model. So, if you like the shape of the size 2 you will be just as happy with the shape of all other sizes in that model. Correct proportions are important when tying flies. The classics do not offer this. THe quality control is also extremely high on the Signature hooks. The tooling for these hooks allows for perfect eye closures and finishes. This production is more costly and therefore the Signature hooks are more expensive. The new series also offers several shapes not found within the classic range.
The Classic hooks are still there and will be there for a long time to come. As I’ve mentioned before, more fish have been caught on our classic hooks than all other brands combined. They work great and catch fish but now you have a choice within Mustad, along with all the other options out there.
Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
I think the “market” focused on the difference between the classic and the Signature series as being chemically sharpened and not being chemically sharpened.
Other than your reference above, I have never had a fly shop owner refer to the proportionality of the Signature series.
It’s a great story, and I shall purchase my first Signatures, and sample the dry fly hook from size 12 to size 20.
I tie flies each Wednesday with about a dozen guys. When I get my hooks I’ll take them to fly tying for the group to “peruse”. Before we start tying, watching basketball or hockey;and sampling the snacks and beverages.
I also promise to use that story in my fly tying classes that I teach.
Thanks,
Don AKA McManus
Swing hard, in case they throw the ball where you’re swinging. Duke Snider
I recieved my order of Signature hooks from Marriotts. I bought the R30 dry fly hooks.
I pulled all my dry fly hooks from my Hook Books and compared them, as best as an amateur can compare.
The R30s are VERY impressive. I believe the point is the sharpest of all my hooks. Are you using a new process?
The proportionality of the hooks is also neat. Not until I began to lay my other hooks on the desk in various sizes, with the R30s did that feature become apparent.
Thanks, for the lesson.
McManus (Don)
PS: I’ll still be buying 94840, 3906, 3906B and 9672. Thanks, again!
Swing hard, in case they throw the ball where you’re swinging. Duke Snider
I use and prefer Mustad hooks and especially like the Signature and Flashpoint series. I do not see finer lines of premium hooks out there. The Flashpoints are particularly shingin in the venue of manufactured barbless hooks–long tapers to long specializes points that hold fish very, very well.
Availablity will always be an issue–the western US and newly opened fly shops seem to have a fondness for Japanese hooks. I am certain that is on the marketing side and not a quality issue.
It’s also important to understand the differences between Japanese and Norwegian tempering as well as realizing that the Japanese factories do not make the wire they use.
You can land a fish on a bent hook but not a broken one. Adn I still stand strong that hooks that break in the vise are a result of operator error (usually improper placement in the vise or too much pressure–or both). I have tied hundreds of thousands of flies on various Mustad hooks and have yet to break a hook.
I’d give it a shot but I think Jeff is far more qualified to provide that answer. The short answer is that the Norwegian process results in a hook that is not as brittle.
Hello Hywel
There is a difference in the tempering that is found in Mustad hooks and most of the hooks coming out of Asia. Mustad has the most experience in tempering hooks and therefore we are able to walk that very fine line of hook tempering. If you temper a hook too little, the hook will be soft and bend like a paperclip. Temper that hook too much and you have a fairly strong hook that will however snap when it stressed beyond it’s capacity. A properly tempered hook (in Mustad’s mind) is one that is very strong BUT when stressed severely, it will start to bend open and not break. A bent hook may lose a fish but certainly lots of fish are landed on bent hooks but certainly ALL fish are lost when a hook breaks.
Asian anglers see tempering quality quite differently. If you talk to a keen angler in Japan for example, they consider a hook inferior quality of the hook is flexed 15 degrees or so and does not break. They want a strong, stiff hook that breaks instead of bends. So, most of the Asian manufacturers temper their hooks that way. It’s also much easier to temper a hook like this and takes far less skill. Most do not have the know how and technology to temper a hook so that it is strong but bends instead of breaks.
Mustad actually produces hooks with both tempering methods. When selling hooks into Japan and some other asian countries, we use the stiffer “Asian” tempering as that is what the market wants. When producing hooks for the rest of the world, we use the NorTempering process which give the hook great strength but the needed flexibility to withstand extreme pressure. NorTempering also makes the Mustad hooks up to 30% stronger than any other hook of the same wire diameter.
Hope that helps answer your question.
Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
This means that in strength testing (hardness and pull testing) the hooks will perform better. You need to consider that hook gap is a major factor in hook strength as well. The wider the gap, the weaker the hook (bends out more easily). Does that clear it up? If not let me know : )
As far as identifying the tempering you cannot by looking at it. Suffice to say that hooks packaged and sold into Asia ONLY are most likely Asian tempered but it depends on the hook and the costomer. You were looking for an easy answer : ) but there isn’t one here. All hooks sold into Europe and North America are NorTempered.
Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
This means that in strength testing (hardness and pull testing) the hooks will perform better. You need to consider that hook gap is a major factor in hook strength as well. The wider the gap, the weaker the hook (bends out more easily). Does that clear it up? If not let me know : )
A bit more background into the methodology and execution of the tests would be of interest to me (and likely others). Note, I am not asking after comparative info, just the test setup.
Hmmm, I might have to take a look into these Flashpoint series of hooks. My fly shop doesn’t carry them and they look quite good. I’m really curious.
I don’t know what it is about hooks but I can’t seem to walk around our shop without picking up another packet of hooks.
I have lots on hand and now I’m going to do a search on the Partridge Flashpoints to see how they are.
I’ve usually been tying on TMC’s but have recently turned a bit more to Mustad Sigs and such as well some other Mustads in the smaller (#18 to #22’s) trout sizes as they seem to be quite good.
I don’t know what it is about hooks but I’m fascinated with them. Hooks and vises…and most recently bamboo rods.
But we won’t go there!
Thanks for an informative thread. My troubles with tying and this intrigue is that when I go into my tying room, (yea, I have a dedicated tying room…all mine!!) I get into looking for a pattern and begin to look something up and get reading and reading.
I can get lost into books on this sport and my son chides me about it. Then we talk for an hour before I turn to the vise.
We’re really lucky…all of us in this sport.
(And I just got myself into a really nice 7 1/2’ 3/2 3wt Hal Bacon bamboo rod deal last night. Should be a fine Christmas weekend!)
Hooks…I’m going to have to find some of those Flashpoints around the Twin Cities someplace. Loren, thanks for tweeking my interest in them!
This has been a fine thread. I hope Jeff doesn’t leave too soon. His input is very valuable as is Hans’.
Thanks,
Jeremy.
[This message has been edited by Jeremy (edited 22 December 2005).]
Hans -
There are 2 methods used in checking the strength and tempering of hooks. The first is to cut the hook so you have a few cross sections. These are then cured into a solid disk that is then inserted into a hardness testing machine. This machine is standard issue for companies who need to test metal hardness. A diamond point is then lowered by computer and pressed into the hook corss sections in several places to measure hardness. The structure of the metal is also reviewed under electron microscopes. We then have a pull testing machine. The bend of the hook is hooked around a fixed metal loop. The eye of the hook is then attached to a hydraulic, computer controlled machine that will pull the hook up away from the metal loop at the bend. As the hook is pulled, it will flex and then eventually open up. The force needed to flex and eventually straighten the hook is precisely measured for analysis. We actually have one of these machines that hooks up to a notebook computer and has been taken to shows. It’s back in Norway now getting a software upgrade and then you will likely see it at some of the shows in the near future. This link shows the MB or pull testing machine in the lab in Norway - [url=http://www.mustad.no/abouthooks/q_control.php:e9812]http://www.mustad.no/abouthooks/q_control.php[/url:e9812]
McManus - There are a few differences between the Flashpoint range and the Signature series. All Signature series hooks are proportionally correct which means that as you go up or down in size within a model, the tying length, gap and wire diameter goes up or down proportionally. So a size 4 and a 28 within a model number are exactly the same shape. Within the Sig range the ratings of strength and length are directly relative. Meaning that a 2X strong is exactly 2 X stronger than a standard wire hook in all sizes. There are no barbless version in the Signature series but all hooks in this range have micro-barbs which are easily pinched. The Flashpoint range offers some unique shapes and also offers a good mix of barbless hooks. There is some great new stuff coming in this range as well.
Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
I like Mustad hooks, but the signature series is mighty hard to find in my area (Cape Cod, i.e. south of Boston and east of Providence, RI). Most flyshops seem to stock a range of japanese chem. sharpened hooks, and it’s all to easy to just reach for someting sort of like what I’m looking for.
Jeff, is there a store in my area that stocks your whole line?
Bimini Twist - Happy Holidays! I wanted to answer your question regarding barbless hooks. When hooks are produced by us, the machines use the barb of the hook as an anchor point to grasp the wire while forming the hook. Having no barb complicates the hook making process a little bit and requires specialized tooling. Not having a barb to hold onto causes a slightly higher reject rate in production. These factors add a bit of cost to the production.
The other factor to consider is the economy of scale. A production run, no matter how large or small has a set production cost (tooling, machine setting, sample running, idle machine time). A large production run of hooks makes these fixed costs much smaller as a per hook charge. Since barbless hooks are not nearly as in demand as barbed hooks, the production runs are much, much smaller. Therefore the cost per hook is higher. So, the barbless hooks cost more than the barbed hooks. Hope that helps to answer your question.
Josko - I have emailed my rep that covers your area and have asked for suggestions on dealers and I’ll get back to you with some answers : )
Jeff - AKA Dr. Fish
If it has fins and swims than I must chase it!
Thanks. I guess we need to create more demand for barbless hooks and get those unit costs down!
BTW, I visited your website looking to learn more about the question of down-eye vs. straight eye hooks for my trout fishing. I know it has oft-discussed topic, but I’ve yet to find any objective analysis of the pros and cons of each. Are there real differences (in hook-ups, fly presentation, etc.) or is it merely a matter of subjective preference?
I presume you guys have studied it, as you seem very methodical and “scientific” about your products, their development and their use.