I spoke of a limited dubbing selection briefly in another thread where Mike Lawson stated that he ties his flies in basically four colors to represent the Mayfly Duns. To refresh your memory the colors were Olive, Tan, Pale Yellow and Slate.
Joe Humphreys too made a statement that he ties his dryflies in black, dark brown, gray and sulphur in his book Trout Tactics.
In another book titled Flyfishing The Tailwaters by Ed Engle, he too supports a philosphy very similar to Mike Lawson’s. When discussing colors of nymphs he speaks of focusing on tans, browns, olives and black. He does leave latitude for scuds, worms, freaky bugs and regional variations but again, he emphasizes basic color selections in a range of sizes.
All and all this brings me to emphasis of this thread. Joe Humphreys as most of you know is an exceptional angler or atleast he is perceived that way by those of us who have witnessed his tv appearances, videos and books.
After reading a chapter on nymph design and imitation I was really focused on a statement that he essentially ties his nymphs on a single hook style, the Mustad 9671. He did mention that for night fishing, he used a Salmon type hook in about a size 1 to 2/0 on which he dressed his wetflies. I believe it was Mustad 36890.
We all know that there are a myriad of hook styles, sizes and companies in the marketplace.
My question is two-fold.
Are you the type of flyfisher on ties on a limited number of models of hooks and concentrates more on the fishing game itself?
and if not
Do you think that a person can who ties on two or maybe three hook models can experience as much success as the guy who ties on an unlimited palate?
I would really like to hear your comments on this as I know Trout Tactics was written many years ago and things change over the course of time. I don’t know Joe Humphreys personally but somehow I would think he sticks pretty close to this baseline philosophy of simplicity and function!
[This message has been edited by RkyMtnGuy (edited 09 September 2005).]
I read Joe’s book several times when I first started fly fishing. I also read lots of other books with different opinions. However, now I wished I had spent the money I spent on those other books differently.
Joe’s pretty accurate in his information. He’s a local fellow and I’ve sat in on many of his clinics. I can say that if you adhere to the “minimalist” camp, you will save yourself years of learning curve. Here’s why…I just went through literally a 2 year process where I tracked each fly I used and what worked and what didn’t. GUess what.
If I had just stuck to what Joe says in his book, I would have saved lots of time and money by just tying up what he suggested, because IT WORKS!
These “old guys who write old books” pretty much are writing to teach, not just to create another book that says the same thing, again.
Reading a book or viewing a video is quite a different experience from actually sitting in on a clinic with someone whose material you have absorbed.
Would you please give some more information about each of these clinics you have taken part in.
Did you watch Mr. Humphreys tie at the vise? What did you observe or hear that you pass on to those of us who have not been graced by his wizardry of experience?
What flies did you notice in his flybox, if he allowed you to peek inside?
Did his flies have a crude appearance suggestive of life or were they more polished?
What do you recall of his tying philosophy that maybe you can pass on?
Please offer up some detail on the experiences you had while in the presence of Joe!
This same suggestion goes out to any others who have had the pleasure of being in company with Joe Humphreys.
For nymphs, I use mostly 3 types of hooks depending on size. 6XL in sizes 6-8, 3XL in sizes 6-10, 1XL in sizes 10-18. Some patterns look better on a TMC 200R or a scud hook, but I think thats more for me than the fish.
I have seen Joe H. cast! I suspect his fly presentations are top notch. This may also play a critical role in the success he has with his flies.
Regards,
Keith
PS. SonOfMartin, how long have you been in Hershey? Are you affiliated with the Med Ctr? I spent 9 years there and have fond memories (for most of it).
“Time’s fun when you’re having flies.” Kermit the Frog
I tie for a living and tie most of my nymph’s for sale and myself on one style of hook. That is in truth all that is needed 99 percent of the time.
But I do use other hooks for different flies Scud hooks and Emerger hooks are used to. I also tie most Dry Flies on one style of hook. Not all but most. Same with streamers and so on. If someone requests another hook than what I use there is an extra charge for those hooks.
I don’t know Joe never met the man. But I have tied for a living for aboput 40’s years and I do know that most fish don’t care what hook the fly is tied on. I have used dry fly hooks for nymphs when the nymph hooks were in short supply. Guess what the anglers didn’t care and nither did the fish.
Me believe’s you are taking this thing to serious. Just remember the KISS method and you will do fine.
You don’t need every hook made to catch a fish. If it were me I would be more worried about how the fly was tied and fished not what hook it is tied on. Ron
[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 09 September 2005).]
I rate well below the other responders in experience, but I’m going to throw in my opinion anyway. For small flies, I think that a straight-eye or an up-eye hook might provide an advantage.
The down-eye hooks have a smaller gape, and it makes sense to me that they would have less efficiency in hooking.
Someone might argue me out of that one, but I think I can defend the use of size 18, 20, and even 22 nymphs. When the PA spring creeks get clear in the summer, those small nymphs work pretty well.
No, the only part I have with HMC is that I live too close to it. The ‘death moth’ sometimes wakes me up. Sorry, very sick inside joke.
Concerning listing dates and times I sat with Joe at his clinics. I can’t remember what I ate for lunch on Wednesday! Suffice it to say that Mr. H. regularly gives clinics at various locations and I’ve sat through at least 3 or 4. My son has fished with him.
The man “can cast” and you’re right - presentation is paramount to catching fish - regardless of fly used.
As to his fly box, son #1 reports that they are “just like the book”. Look like bugs, not like showcase flies meant to catch tourist fly fishers.
Mr. H. is a down to earth guy and his fishing equipment and flies reflect that.
My two year study required that I keep detailed notes of my flies and fish caught, and it didn’t surprise me that I carry about 500 flies too many when I go out.
My feeling is that there are very few, if any, ‘absolutes’ in fly fishing. On a personal level, a persons fly fishing credability is directly and inversely proportionate to the ‘absolute’ comments they make. Absolutely!
As far as your questions:
Limited only insofar as the hooks that are available and the price I’m willing to pay. Yes, I do concentrate more on the fishing during the season. However, in the winter I concentrate on tying since I cannot fish.
I have absolutely no idea. By the way, how do you define “success”?
First to reply to an earlier comment about possibly “taking things a bit too seriously”!
Nope not taking anything as serious or gospel, I am only partaking in some conversation as I would do if there were other flyfisher folks sitting across the table and wanting to enter into a discussion pertaining to a topic.
Thanks to SonOfMartin for additional comments. My perception is that Joe Humphreys would be a truly remarkable character to share some time with at the vise or streamside.
To Allan. Success? Good question. Everyone measures success differently don’t they?
As to my use of the word success in my initial post, I was intimating a scenario even though I more than likely didn’t make it crystal clear enough for some people to answer.
The scenario being that if you gave an angler a handful of say, Rene Harrop flies and a handful of Joe Humphrey flies (which to me appear to be rather crude compared to Rene’s skills at the vise) would there be a discernable increase or decrease in success rate for the angler.
Obviously I would be talking about matching up…duns for duns, spinner to spinners, emerger to emerger, nymph to nymph…etc.
It’s all in conversation and to see what kind of responses are fielded by the topic.
RkyMtnGuy,
The majority of it, in my opinion, is presentation. You live in CO and have probably fished the canyon? A lot of people fish the same flies with a very different amount of “success.” The hook probably does not make much of a difference as to who is catching the fish. Just a different take on it.
RonMt,
Would you share with us what hook you DO use for…
Nymphs
Drys
Streamers
and so on…
I ask for a personal reason…am needing to get a supply of hooks for a second location and just as you said I want to KISS.
It may be a matter of semantics but I would say for what it’s worth that I do think the style of hook can make a difference…e.g. you won’t get me to tie a fly on an R200…they just flat out miss too many hookups…my stimulators do better on something else.
About 5 years ago I was tying with a few people from the Catskill Fly Tyer’s Guild at a show in NJ. I happened to notice this older gentleman directly in front of me and watching as I tyed. I must have just attached the hackle when he finally spoke. He asked me, “Do you know how to get the hackle to stand up straight”? I responded with something like, “I think so. How”?
He broke out in a smile and said, “Sprinkle some Viagra on it”!
One of the guys in the Guild knew Mr. Humphrey’s and took a photo of him as he leaned over in front of me.
I’m with RonMT here. We are really deluged with specialty hooks these days, and I’m not sure how much of it is really necessary. I’ve tied small wet flies in the #20 range on dry fly hooks because I didn’t have small enough wet fly ones available, and the flies fished great. I’ve tied nymphs on the longer shanked hooks like the TMC200R and Mustad 9671, and on the smaller Mustad 3906 and 3906B, and on TMC2487 curved hooks, and I’m not sure any of them made a dime’s worth of difference. I guess the proof would be to tie all your flies one year on the same model dry fly hook, Mustad 94840 or TMC100, whatever you like. Nymphs, wets, dries, terrestrials, and streamers (using maybe a 6 or 8 if they come in that ), and see how you do. My guess would be about the same. I picked dry fly because it does need to float. Beyond that, you can always weigh it down somehow. But the hooks are out there, and it is fun to have some of every single kind in every style from all the different manufacturers like Jan Broga does. (Sorry Jan). Jan sent me an assortment of just Mustad dry fly hooks from his collection that goes on and on. Every different shank length, eye style, up, down, straight, you name it, he sent it. I never knew there were so many varieties, and these were just Mustads, and just dry fly hooks. Amazing.
Eric
Ron and Eric, I really appreciate your commentary. Now that I look back on this thread, I guess my question should have been:
…based on your experiences in flytying and dealing specifically with flies for trout, if you could only choose two hook models, one for surface flies and one for sub-surface flies, what models would you choose?
I’ve never put a size 2, say Mustad 9671 into a vise so I don’t have any idea if that model would satisfy tying say Stonefly nymphs or Streamers. Most of those flies I’ve always tied on a 4x hook such as the Mustad 79580.
Again, thanks for your comments.
[This message has been edited by RkyMtnGuy (edited 09 September 2005).]
Okay, in all seriousness, and this is just MHO re trout flies, I’d say you need only as many hook types as you actually fish. For example, if you never fish streamers, you don’t need a streamer hook. Same is true for dries or nymphs. Since I fish dries the majority of the time but on occassion do fish those others, I would have to have those 4 hook models.
Based on model shapes, quality, price, value and availability I would use Mustad 94840(dry), Mustad 94831(large dries, hoppers, stimulators and maybe some nymphs), Mustad 3906B(wets/nymphs), Mustad 79580(streamers). I’m sure others may agree with these selections and others will choose different models for whatever reason. A lot depends on the types of flies you tie and how you want that fly to present itself. But give anyone a stash of the ones I’ve listed and, except for the occassional exception, they could get by without seeking something else.
When I first started tying I got sucked in big time and would buy whatever hook was specified in the recipe. As a result I ended up with lots of hook styles that made the flies look just like the picture but didn?t make a difference in the fish catching arena. About 5 years ago I gave away the 20 zillion different varieties of hooks I accumulated and started over from scratch. I now use a limited selection based on my needs.
While I may use more than one style of hook for floating flies, nymphs and streamers it is usually a straight shank versus curved shank thing or a straight eye versus down eye thing. I now find that with the exception of certain classic flies I am attempting to learn how to do justice to; my limited hook selection covers 100% of what I attempt to tie with no complaints from the fish.
Joe Humphreys is a master and the lessons of ?Trout Tactics? are as valid today as when the book was first published. None of the trout I know read any of the new literature out there about how they are supposed to behave in 2005 versus 1981.
An added somewhat funny Joe Humphreys story:
My cousin who graduated from Penn State would tell me about an older gentleman who he tailgates with at PS home games. Apparently the senior member of the tailgate party was the father-in-law of my cousin?s college roommate. I would always hear about how this tailgater was some kind of ?big deal fisherman?. Here my cousin who DOESN?T fish at all was hanging out with Joe himself. He and his kids even went to Joe?s house and sent me pictures to make me nuts. Needless to say I packed up my Humphreys books and had my cousin take them with him to the next home game and have them inscribed by Joe.
Ron