OK I have been tying for a while now… some years in fact. Every book I have looked at has stressed that you should not try to hide the point of the hook in the vice jaws, to try to get used to it being exposed and work the thread around it. They have never really stated why. I AM SICK TO DEATH OF CATCHING THE THREAD ON THE HOOK POINT AND AM NOT GETTING ANY BETTER AT THIS EVEN THOUGH I HAVE BEEN TYING A LONG TIME AND SO WHY THE HECK CAN’T I HIDE THE HOOK POINT IN THE VICE JAWS IF I BLOODY WELL WANT TO ???
The longer answer is: You probably shouldn’t (want to).
With the point buried the placement in the jaws will be such that you have less access to the hook. Also, you might be causing structural damage to the barb area and on some hooks the offset bend.
I really suggest you train yourself to work around the point by changing the angle of the thread as you wrap close to the bend of the hook.
The one thing you must always remember is that the tail on a fly should come off straight from the hook shank. If you look at a hook you will notice that the hook will start the bend down right above the hook barb. If you hide the hook point in the vise jaws, you will be hiding the barb also. This could cause you to tie the tail in beyond the barb and have a tail that bends down instead of coming off straight. I always tie the tail on my flies directly above the hook barb which assures that the tail will come off straight plus it gives me a visual point to tie in the tail. This could possibly be why they instruct you to not hide the hook point in the vise jaws.
I am sure, with practice, you could hide the hook and barb and still get the tail tied in straight, but, I like using the barb as my tie-in point when tying flies. I never have to wonder if the tail is coming off the shank straight back.
Just my thoughts on your question and nothing more.
Over the years I have trained myself not to nick the thread any more while winding; my problem seems to be now that I finish the fly then inspect it and see the thread has done a wrap around the point - aaarrrrgghh!
My latest problem is in pheasant tail nymphs and I am snicking the feather barb on the body wrap after doing the tail, I have done this on every second fly maybe.
Every time I have wondered why I can’t hide the point!
Than you kind souls for your help and understanding as I go crazy here.
I don’t recommend hidinh the hook point in the jaws…
When I first started to tie I was also frustrated by catching the thread on the hook point. So against the advice of many of my books I tried placing the hooks such that the point was protected by the jaws. Unfortunatly when I fished with flies I had tied this way I found the hooks often broke near the bend.
A more experianced tier explained the problem to me. The hook wire tapers from the bend to the point. By placing the hook in the vice to bury the point, the clamping force is applied over the tapered area. This concentrates the jaw forces on the thicker wire and puts too much pressure on the hook wire. Excessive pressure creates tiny fractures that weaken the metal and resulted in broken hooks.
When hooks are placed in the vice the the traditional manner the clamping force is applied to an area where the hook wire does not taper, pressure from the jaws is evenly distrubuted over a larger surface area.
There are other ways to protect your thread from the hook point. Try placing a small section of micro tubing over the hook point to protect the thread from being cut. I have also used a small BB sized ball of modeling clay or cork. Eventually your tying skills will develop and you will learn to keep the thread out of the way of the point.
While, for me it’s not a normal practice, when I’m wrapping a silk body I will hide the hook point to keep from catching a stray silk fiber. All it takes is one snagged fiber and your fly looks like bloody heck.
Normally I keep the point visible to help me remember the correct proportions of the flies I’m working on.
I don’t hide the hook point or barb as I use them as a reference. That said, I read something from a very famous tier not too long ago, and I can’t remember who it was, and he said to always hide the hook point. I’m thinking it was George Harvey…YES! I have the quote right here, from “Trout Fishing and Fly Tying”: “The hook should be placed in the vise (represented by the dotted line) so the point of the hook is covered, allowing as much clearance between the top of the vise and shank of the hook as possible.”
The diagram shows an older vise head, like a Thompson model “A” or similar, and the tip of the head of the vise is covering the barb of the hook and just a bit of the shank. He bends the barbs down before placing the hook in the vise, so he doesn’t care about damaging it.
So there you go. You have permission from none other than George Harvey, the dean of Pennsylvania fly fishermen, who held the fly fishing chair at Penn State University for years and years, and is an angling legend, to completely cover the point of the hook. So feel free.
Eric
I think burying the hook point in the vise is bad practice no matter who suggested it. As others have said it limits access to the shank and can damage the hook.
As an added thought note that where the barb is “sliced” up, the cut was made with a sharp tool that left a very sharp notch. This is the weakest spot on the hook where the stresses are concentrated and “magnified”. Any forces that work to bend the hook at this point will break the hook.
I agree with showing the barb and point. I also agree that close tying with a horizontal bobbin avoids the point most of the time. However
I suggest getting a good light with a built-in magnifier, getting magnifying specs, or any of the systems that put magnifiers on a headband or glasses clip. You will tie better flies of all kinds and have even wraps on the heads, better ribbing etc. You will also be able to see the point and be able to do an angled wrap to avoid it.
If you need to protect the hook point from the thread or material you are using simply cut a small section of larva lace (or similar product) and stick it over the point. Make sure it extends past the hook point. Oboiusly small hooks require the smallest tubing. It stays for as long as you wish, pull it off when you are done and reuse it. Mount the hook in the vice in the normal manner. If you bump the point with the thread, or whatever, it just bounces off with no damage, tangle or cutting.
Being a ham-handed, sausage-fingered clod, I tend to actually scratch my right index finger on the hook point (while nicking and breaking my thread as well). I will try sticking some foam or an eraser on the point. Thanks for the tip…but pardon me for fuming after I realize that I should have thought of that myself. Pass the band-aids.
I have found that lifting my elbow higher when I am making wraps near the hook point helps. I also angle my wraps. That is I move the bobbin more towards the back of the fly at the top of swing and pull the bobbin forward on the down swing. That may not be well said.
Saying it another way. I angle my wraps so that they are not perpendicular to the hook at the top and bottom of the arc.
If hiding the hook point does not hinder your tying by overly restricting your ability to access the back of the fly then there is no problem.
I think that at times I have lost my muscle memory and I cut the thread on the hook point on a series of flies so I have at times hidden the hook point. I have had a problem with the the hook breaking at the bend when I find myself flexing the hook shank back and forth a lot while tying. This would be on thin diameter hooks.
