Gun control- a fathers perspective.

FAOL Community Sound Off
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Please note that the following is NOT intended as a sermon to those who may disagree but merely a post to those that may.
It has the words "God " and “prayer” repeated several times and if you find that offensive, DO NOT PROCEED. Thanks
Mark

DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY:
Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used… Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent.
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You’ve stripped away our heritage,
You’ve outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question “Why?”
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. "Eric and Dylan would no have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.
“As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!”

[This message has been edited by Marco (edited 15 July 2005).]

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Amen.
…lee s.

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It took a lot of courage to say what he said and he said it very well. Hopefully, it did not fall on deaf ears with lined pockets.

Warren

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Thank you Marco, the only question is, have THEY learned from Mr. Scott’s statement?

I have some very serious concerns that THEY have not.

Wyo-blizzard

[This message has been edited by Byron Zuehlsdorff (edited 15 July 2005).]

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I neither hunt nor own a gun, however I am a FIRM believer that a murderer will find a way to kill you with a plastic spoon if a more viable weapon is not available. We need to quit being so “namby-pamby” with the criminal mentality & start PUNISHING!..IMHO, if we punish the proven “intent” to kill BEFORE it happens, we have saved lives & MAYBE even pro-actively identified & turned a potential killer around by mandating treatment BEFORE the “button” is pushed.
Mike

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Mike,

Not trying to minimize or trivialize the application of specific sentencing of criminals, especially killers.

When you write,
“if we punish the proven “intent” to kill BEFORE it happens, we have saved lives & MAYBE even pro-actively identified & turned a potential killer around by mandating treatment BEFORE the “button” is pushed”.

I’m not sure what you are suggesting. Do you mean if someone is caught DUI, that person should be tried for vehicular homicide? Do we try people for what might happen? That’s a ‘slippery slope’, don’t you think?

Allan

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I do own several guns, but I don’t hunt. I punch holes in paper and love doing that…My guns hang on the walls of my workroom, they are in my gun cabinet, and none of them have ever killed. Anything! All of that was done years ago in another time in another place. He is right in what he is saying…where are we going as a nation. We let a MINORITY of people take religion out of our schools. We let the federal government take the 10 commandments off the courthouse wall in Alabama because it only represented Christianity. I feel as though my rights have been totally taken away from me by minorities (not intended racially but in beliefs and extremists) that play on the courts using the letter of the laws instead of the intent of the laws. It just isn’t right nor is it fair.I respect everyone and everyone’s rights I dont try to force my beliefs on them nor do I allow theirs to be forced on me. to say that my grandkids can’t pray in school…just who is going to stop them?

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Allan, I can’t believe you are that dense.
The kids who did the Columbine shooting had public websites where they bragged about their intent. They had been hauled to the police station for violent acts. People actually knew they had problems.

Could they have been stopped? Treated? We will never know because no one tried and they are dead.

As long as our politically correct society is brainwashed with the attitude that there is no right, no wrong, no evil, and no one is responsible, just really good people who had ‘bad’ things happen to them, you will continue to see more of this.

Opps, we already are.

Duh.

LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

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Hey there Allen;
While not specifically referring to your very valid post, the “slippery slope” argument has prevented a whole bunch of great anti-crime legislation. It’s principal failing is in the erroneous ASSUMPTION that IN FACT a particular act will neccessarily lead to another act. While possible that it may, it also may NOT. A greater good should be considered in the balance.The only people who should fear laws are those who intend to break them. Of course, my comment is only MY opinion and please accept it as only that. I know it is not very popular and surely NOT shared by the ACLU or many civil libertarians.

Mark

I’d rather be in Wyoming!

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LF,

Glad that you don’t think I’m that dense.

Allan

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I hate wet sand…

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Allan,
What I meant in my previous post is NOT to try for “vehicular homicide” for a simple DUI. I mean “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”. In other words, DO NOT wait for a threatened crime to happen…address it proactively by investigating the “threat” & acting on that & its’ motivation, rather than waiting until the actual crime (often deadly) is committed. Waiting too long is just too common…I KNOW it happens with domestic violence. My oldest daughter once was tied up with one of those guys (I didn’t know about the physical abuse until a friend of hers told him she was telling me…the coward skipped State before I found him). In Molly’s case, a “restraining order” against the jerk was issued!..WOW!!..I’ll bet THAT has prevented a lot of murders. I am convinced that had her friends’ threat not been issued, she would have faced further harm. He knew me & knew I’d find him. I don’t recommend vigilante law, but it seems our judicial system only reacts to the “completed act”…I feel we should work to prevent the act & protect innocent victims to a greater extent.
Sorry for the rant, but I am pretty passionate about this.
Mike

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Let’s carry this out a little farther. The liberal judges that rule on the “interpretation” of a law that has been in existence for a long time and change its’ meaning are what hurt us. As a peace officer, I cannot act until a deed is done because of “rulings” made in the recent past. I cannot protect you until some dastardly deed has been done. A peace officers hands are tied because of a silliness/stupidity in some elected persons mind.
I have never in my 56 years seen a gun, knife, club or other inanimate object walking down the street looking for someone to kill. I have seen people do that! Our society today has the idea of placing the blame somewhere else and never accepting responsibility for our own actions. Dr. Spock has ruined more lives than just about any person alive.
We as outdoorsmen and women see this every day in the wild. If you are the little fish and you don’t watch your back, you will be eaten. No ifs, ands, or buts! That’s life! Accept it, live within its’ boundaries, and live life.
When each of us as citizens, once again, takes charge of our own lives and responsibilities to this society we live in, then we as citizens will make it our duty and responsibility to once again pay attention to what is going on around us and report suspicious activity so it may be “documented” and give the officers the ability to investigate and possibly prevent bad things from happening. When we as citizens decide"ENOUGH", I’m not taking this any more and speak out against someting a person or persons is doing, to them, and those persons realize they don’t just have to hide from the law, then our society will come back in to line with what it should be. Remember, the Supreme Court has held numerous times that the police are not there to protect everyone. If it is not up to the police,then it must be US!! What are you going to do about it??
One of the things that has come out of the Columbine tragedy is that officers are now trained to run to the sound of gunfire. Don’t wait, get in there and stop it! Don’t wait on a swat team or anybody else, get in there and stop it!! Just like the firemen and officers on 9/11 that went to the towers to save whomever they could.
It’s time that this same attitude once again infected all our citizens! Just as the song says,“This is MY country…” That gives each and every one of us ownership of this country! Are you content to let someone else have and run your share? Not me!
When they spread my ashes over the trout stream I have chosen, I want someone to say’" That old S O B would dang sure put you on the straight and narrow and let you know what he thought of your crooked ways." What will your legacy be?

Andy

all types of fishermen must pull together for the good of all!!!

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Mike,

You write,

“In other words, DO NOT wait for a threatened crime to happen…address it proactively by investigating the “threat” & acting on that & its’ motivation, rather than waiting until the actual crime (often deadly) is committed. Waiting too long is just too common.”

I totally agree. I thought your previous post meant to convict a person as if the outcome had been done even though that person hadn’t yet acted. For example, using the Columbine tragedy: If those nuts were caught before they had carried out their plan, they would have been charged with something like ‘conspiracy with the “intent” to commit murder’ and should have gone to jail for the rest of their lives. If they were caught after the murders, they should have been charged with ‘capital murder’ and gotten the needle immediately after being found guilty. No go to jail. No appeals.

Allan

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It’s easy to armchair quarterback these types of tragedies after the fact where hindsight is 20/20. That is not to say we shouldn’t try to learn from our mistakes and improve. However, we have to remember that we are all human and fallible. We ALL make mistakes. Institutions made up of individuals are also going to fail from time to time. And things like Columbine, 9/11, and the London and Spain train bombings are going to happen…inspite of the best efforts of law enforcement, legislatures, and the courts. How many times has each of us said to ourselves, “If I had only known then what I know now…” Every teacher, every law enforcement officer, every counselor, every doctor, and probably their own parents (whom I hold the most responsible for the tragic massacre) who ever saw even the faintest warning signs from the Columbine duo will say that to themselves every night as they try to fall asleep for the rest of their lives.

I think it is part of the modern American nature to hold our military and law enforcement community to an impossibly high standard. We also do this with product liability. We have come to believe that no one should ever die except of old age and even THAT is questionable. We believe that no one should get hurt. And no one should suffer unjustly or even get sick. While these are noble goals to aspire to, we cannot forget that they are unattainable. Suffering and bad luck are a natural part of existence. It doesn’t have to necessarily be anyone’s fault. In the case of Columbine, the blame lies with those two boys. The rest was simple human imperfection.

On the issue of gun control, it has been proven in study after study that gun control does not deter crime…period. In fact, it often has the opposite effect. Any intelligent person who is involved in that issue on any level has to know this. The data is irrefutible. So, I ask you, what could possibly be the motive of the gun control advocates? Do they want more crime? I doubt it, but I guess it’s possible. It is far more likely that their motives are political in nature. The 2nd Amendment is THE civil right which guarantees all the others, for it creates the climate in which the people can…if necessary…take up arms to overthrow a despotic government. It is the ultimate check and balance. Why would anyone want to remove it? I think the answer is obvious.

“Fear the politician who fears your gun.”

Fishing the Ozarks

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Gentlemen;
Are we totally disregarding the gist of Mr. Scotts’ testimony? Actually, I’m curious if you all feel his thought holds no water. At the risk of sounding like a religeous zealot, I believe that his thesis was that without the discipline of religion, moral values deteriorate.Once upon a time there was the military draft that also taught discipline.That initial haircut leveled everyone to a common stature. That DIs’ bark came like thunder from above. Now even that’s gone. Feeling good is all that becomes important at whatever cost. Religious based values are usually conveyed to children via their parents and that takes proactive participation in their lives. Personal privacy is for adults and not the children in our homes. No locked bedroom doors, weird clothes,haircuts or body piercings ( remember, I’m 62).
Legislated gun control is the epitome of stupidity for all the reasons and more that are stated in the previous posts. Very few people should fear I have a gun and those who should, should know I have one.

Mark

I’d rather be in Wyoming!

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While I believe there is some merit in that thesis, Marco, I do NOT believe that the presence of organized prayer in the public schools would have prevented Columbine. In the days you harken back to we still had Billy the Kid and Bonnie and Clyde.

Relativism has even been widely adopted by modern religious institutions. Relativism leads to nihilism, which leads to anarchy and chaos. This is what destroys the fabric of a free society. So I think his comment about Dr. Spock was a very accurate use of hyperbole. I do not, however, believe that it should fall to the public school system to teach moral truth. Rather, it should endorse it without the favoring of any specific religion. Moral truth should be taught in the family and in the church, synagogue, mosque, or temple. And it should be valued and endorsed by ALL of society.

Moral relativism is a cornerstone of radical Leftism. This really took hold in the West in the 1960s as the dominant philosophical position of society. Today, it is still valued most highly (they call it “open-mindedness”) by our intellectual elite and social engineers. That is not to say there is no positive value in being open-minded. Rather, it has been taken to the extreme. And for that we are reaping the whirlwind.

Fishing the Ozarks

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Hey Silver Mallard;
I don’t believe that Mr. Scott advocated organized prayer in public schools. He simply blames the absolute exclusion of spiritualiy/prayer in those schools by those who choose to do so. You said it best when you said that public schools should not teach moral truths but should certainly endorse them as they exist via any religion.

Thanks for your input.

Mark

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As you direct Grand PooBah.

Mark
PS: Must be "big bucks " in this BB monitoring business or else you’d be out fishin and deleting all the bad words and ugly posts AFTER that. ( remember, “trainable”!)

I’d rather be in Wyoming!

[This message has been edited by Marco (edited 17 July 2005).]

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Sorry, JC. Gotta ad just a little.

Beign a Columbine Graduate, and having been in many classes, and good friends with the oldest Scott son, and having a sister that would have been a senior there if my family had not moved, every time the Columbine tragedy comes up I have very difficult feelings to express. I thin they have been very well expressed by Mr. Scott.

I am also angered at those who try to use it to ‘make things better.’ It should be used as an example of how laws should be enforced, not as a springboard to push for new ones.

That is all I will express on the issue.

Don
Columbine, class of '86