Guide Spacings

Equipment Rod Building: Cane and Graphite
1

This formula came from Art Scheck?s book: Fly Rod Building Made Easy, and is how Art calculates the guides spacing for any length rod with any given number of guides for a custom fit to the rod owner. This formula insures that starting at the first guide; each guide is exponentially further apart. If you remember basic algebra it’s simple.

D = TG + (TG + X) + (TG + 2X) + (TG + 3X) + (TG + 4X) + (TG + 5X) + (TG + 5X) + (TG + 6X) + (TG + 7X) + (TG + 8X) + (TG + 9X)

The following is the work up of guide spacing I came up with for a 9? 4 piece rod. Reach is the distance from the butt of the rod to the first stripping guide. A 30? reach is comfortable to me but if you have longer or shorter arms adjust this number to suit. 28? to 32? is the general range for most people. The reasoning is, if you drop the line (while stripping it back in) and it?s hanging from the first stripper guide, you have to ?Reach? for it. This is assuming the rod butt is still against your waist, or directly in front you. If you pull the rod back to your side to bring the hanging line to you, well that?s a topic in itself. You’ll need to consider a fighting butt if applicable as this can possibly add inches to the total length of the rod, thus affecting the reach by that much.

Example: 9? 4pc rod with 10 guides (plus tip top)

Guide1 = G1, Guide2 = G2, etc.
Rod Length (L) = 109? (my 9 foot blank was actually 109?)
Reach (R) = 30?
Distance (tip top to stripper guide) (D) = (L?R) 79?
Guides (G) = 10
Tip to G1 (TG) = 4.5?
-TG is an arbitrary number usually between 3 and 5 inches. Shorter (7?) rods might look better with a 3? or 3.5? starting point and a 9? or 10? rod might be better with a 4? or 5? starting point. Reduce the number on a longer rod if you want an extra guide. Adjust this number +/- if a guide falls on a ferrule, then start over. An inch difference at Guide-1 can mean several inches at the second stripper (or next to the last guide toward the butt end).

Lets plug in the number:
TG x G = 45

D = 4.5 + (4.5 + X) + (4.5 + 2X) + (4.5 + 3X) + (4.5 + 4X) + (4.5 + 5X) + (4.5 + 6X) + (4.5 + 7X) + (4.5 + 8X) + (4.5 + 9X)

Basic Algebra, just ?do the math?
D = (4.5 * 10) + (45X)
D = 45 + 45X
79 = 45 + 45X
79 - 45 = (45 - 45) + 45X
34 = 45X
(34 / 45) X
X = .755
Round to Convert to
Nearest 1/8? fraction
G1 = TG = 4.5 4.5 4 1/2
G2 = TG + X = 9.75 9.75 9 3/4
G3 = TG + G2 + 2X = 15.76 15.75 15 3/4
G4 = TG + G3 + 3X = 22.52 22.5 22 1/2
G5 = TG + G4 + 4X = 30.04 30 30
G6 = TG + G5 + 5X = 38.31 38.375 38 3/4
G7 = TG + G6 + 6X = 47.34 47.375 47 3/4
G8 = TG + G7 + 7X = 57.12 57.125 57 1/8
G9 = TG + G8 + 8X = 67.66 67.625 67 5/8
G10 = TG + G9 + 9X = 78.95 79 79

There you go. A custom spacing chart for YOU for YOUR rod.

2

The problem with guide spacing formulas…is that they dont take into account the ACTUAL rod “flex” itself.

A person can take a standard set of dimensions from any source for the length and weight of their blank…and of course the number of pieces…install them with 1/4" masking tape and run a line thru them all.

Giving them a full compression bend…statically…and watch the flow of the line thru those guides and if it ISNT a smooth; gentle CURVE thru them all…from one to another…re-locate the one(s) that DONT allow a smooth curve. Adding or subtracting guides as required.

The measurements start at the TIP TOP and come down the blank…and if the first stripper is too far away for a person to grasp easily with the off hand…then ADD another stripper…the next LARGER size 4-5 inches down the blank ( closer to the caster himself)

Once ALL strippers and guides ( and tip top) are installed…and taped down nice and solid…then a person can go out in the yard and actually CAST that blank ( no actual need for a reel seat on it) and see how it works for HIM…and thats the object of the game…how it works for the owner.

3

I’m with Sully on this one.

Formulas and charts are ‘adequate’, but you can certainly do better.

I know that many folks just want to build a fishable rod, and ‘optimum preformance’ isn’t something they care about. That’s fine, of course, it’s your rod.

However, one of the things that building your own rod will allow you to do is to set up the guides for the optimum performance of the blank.

The ‘ideal’ is use as few guides as possible and still achieve both smooth line flow and proper support of the blank. This is the one area where a ‘custom build’ can exceed or improve on the factory rods.

It’s not hard to do, you don’t even need a measuring device, but it does take some time to do it right. If you get in a hurry, it won’t work.

You can go to www.Rodbuilding.org and search for ‘static guide placement’ and find out how to do this.

Buddy

4

I’ve always used the guide placement chart provided by Al Campbell in his rod building tutorial. It’s in part 9.

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/graphite/part9.php

It’s always worked well for me, but I’m one of those people who is more concerned with function over perfection. Those other methods are all well and good, but I guess I’m one who wants to keep things a little simpler.

5

Buddy and Sully,

I can see a lot of merit to the method you mention. However, I wonder how one goes about choosing the size of the guides. That is one plac the charts help a beginer like me.

I built saddles a bunch of years ago, so I am inclined to go with the finer points of making anything.

6

Ya play with actual sizes. Various charts will “sort of” standardize on sizes for the same length and weight rod blank. So you buy those and a few more ( ESPECIALLY if you are talking wire snake guides) and of course that magic 1/4" wide masking tape…and you located them and tape them on. Then comes the “play time”!! Lets say the “standard setup” runs something like …5;4;3;3;3;3; tip. Do you gain anything buy using say …5;4;4;4;3;3; tip…? Who knows? YOU WILL after practice casting on the lawn for awhile. You might even try a 6;5;4;4;3;3;tip.

7

But once again…thats a generic chart! For a 9 ft rod that chart states…

whereas for a SPECIFIC rod blank ( in this case a Sage)…it states…
Guide 1 1 5
Guide 2 1 10-1/8
Guide 3 1 16-1/8
Guide 4 2 22-1/4
Guide 5 2 29-1/2
Guide 6 2 37-1/8
Guide 7 3 45-3/8
Guide 8 3 54-1/4
Guide 9 4 65-3/16
Guide 10 12t 77-3/8

8

I find the placement of guides is an art form. It can require a bit of experience to really obtain maximum performance from a blank.

I do not see mention here of consideration for the weight of the guides. I do see the comment to add as needed or add another stripper, but that can add weight and change the casting performance as well. I usually follow the rule “One guide per foot plus one”. The number of strippers will depend on the line size the blank is intended for.

The size of the guides will depend on the intended use of the rod. I go as light/small as possible if the intended use may be accuracy (such as stream rods). I will go larger, careful not to add too much weight for rods intended for distance casting - fishing that requires blind coverage of water (some ocean fishing and streamers).

I usually start with a spacing formula (not chart) that allows me to place the stripper guide in relation to the owner’s arm length so he can reach the line easily for line handling. Then I adjust the distance from tip top to next guide as well, to accommodate for smooth transition from the rod. I usually base this on the length of the rod (closer for short/longer for long rods - usually 3.5 to 4.5 inches). The formula I use then calculates a progressive distance for the other guides.

Once the guides are taped in place, then I do as Sully suggests and give it all a compression bend and adjust accordingly. I rarely find an adjustment to be necessary but on very fast blanks I see the need occasionally. Then I actually cast the rod to be sure the line flows smoothly through the guides.

This method has gotten me quite a bit of praise on how my rods cast better than most. :slight_smile:

9

As far as guide type/size goes…

You really gain nothing by using a ‘tapered’ guide set…

There are two things that guides do besides distribute stress along the blank…they tame the oscillation of the line and they guide the line in the direction you want it to go.

To do the first, you need a bit larger guide, hence the larger ‘stripping’ guide…after that, you want one or at most two step down guides to tame the line cone and straighten the line path for entering your ‘running guides’.

The running guides should all be the same size and be the smallest guides possible that will still pass all the required connections. The idea is to reduce weight and keep the line path as tight as possible. Think rifle barrell rather than shotgun. The ‘straighter’ the line flows through the guides the farther it will go with the same amount of applied force. Any extra ‘slop’ (some is needed, of course, but the less the better) just allows the line to expend energy going in directions we don’t want.

I only use single foot ceramic insert guides on my fly rods. For rods up to a six weight, I use 6mm guides for the running guides and tip top. Sevens and up get 7mm running guides.

The ‘taming set’ is usually 10-8-7, or 12-10-8. Still, only single foot ceramic insert guides.

I’ve built some two and three weights with 5.5 mm guides, and they work just fine.

As far as spacing the guides goes, charts are made for ease of production. ALL blanks flex differetnly, even blanks made by the same manufacturer of the same model. Factory rods have to use enough guides so that all the variables are covered, plus a little ‘extra’ to help ensure proper stress distribution on ANY blank they build.

A custom rod builder can take a few minutes and maybe reduce the number of guides needed by one or two…this saves weight, and usually saves it in the most critical area, the tip section. Saving weight is the most direct effect you can have on rod blank performance…the less energy required to move the mass of the rod and it’s components, the more can be ‘used’ to cast the line.

Again, though, it’s really up to the person building the rod. Some folks really don’t care all that much making minute improvements…others really find glory in the little details.

I like doing it the best way I know how…but I also realize that it is, really, just a fishing rod.

Buddy

10

That sounds exactly like how I do it. And for similar reasons.

11

Does added guides ( and the additional weight) change the rods performance? Certainly it can…but does it IN ACTUALITY change the rods “casting” to the individual?? Unfortunately the weight ends up in the worst possible place ( near the tip) but its not like it would change a “tip flex” action rod into a “full flex” action.

I have 2 identical rods here ( 9 ft…6 wgt…St Croix ) that except the wood inserts in the rell seats are identical…AND the guides. One has an additional stripper and also has an added snake near the tip. Without looking I cant tell which is which casting-wise until I try and shoot “a lot” ( relative term…lol) of line. If Im just casting say 40 feet…I cast each identically…

12

I built ONE single rod using single foot ceramics. A 8 1/2 ft T&T blank in 3 wt. When I finished it I was so sick of looking at it I sold it to a young lady in Colorado for less $$ than the bare blank alone cost me…let alone the Cermet guides and REC reelseat. I just wanted it out of my house

13

Sully,

Everyone has different ideas about how a rod should look. I’m not a ‘traditionalist’ and I find the idea of using old fashioned and cheap bent pieces of wire as line guides on a modern fly rod to be an archaic practice, kind of like comuting in a model T or using a turn table and vinyl records to listen to music. I like the sleek look of the mostly same size guides, and I like the longetivity and performance of modern guides. I’ve rebuilt several cane rods and used ceramic guides on all of them…and I find they ‘look’ fine.

As far as being able to ‘tell’ the difference with optomized guide spacings? Nope, I certainly can’t ‘tell’ by handling a rod.

And, as far as casting the rod goes, the added performance that comes from reducing weight is seldom obvious to the angler.

That being said, the improved performance IS still there. Does it manifest as added distance? Sure, but the skill of the caster will always be the single most important factor for that. I’ve seen guys cast an entire fly line with a broom stick…

Does the added performance reduce fatigue. Certainly. Moving less weight, even small amounts of it, means you are saving energy. How much? Who knows. But the energy ‘savings’ are still there.

Does any of this really matter? Nope. It’s just fly rod. I’ve fished with $9 rods from the discount store that fished just fine (you can buy a ten foot telescoping crappie pole, tape on some gudes and the reel with masking tape, and cast/fish just as well as you can with a high dollar factory rod in a pinch). Most first time home built rods are just fine, even with all the mistakes a ‘new’ wrapper makes, the rods will still fish just fine. Which is kind of the point here…

I can make a great case for modern guides, optomized guide placements, single foot guides to reduce wraps, short as possible wraps and minimum finish, all to reduce weight.

But, in the grand scheme of things, it only matters if it matters to YOU. This is just about fishing, nothing of real importance here.

Buddy

14

“Buddy” looks like you and I have the exact same feelings about guide spacing and guide size. Nice to see someone else share the same feeling about that.

IMO way too many guys simply try to “over think” spacing&sizeing and try to reinvent the wheel. Not saying that size and placement doesn’t matter because it does to a certain point, but it always amazes me when I hear guys saying they moved a few guides 1/2" and all the sudden they think the rod casts so much better.

Simply space the guides where they allow a nice smooth arc to the rod when it’s under pressure, use the smallest size running guide as you can get away with, good stripper and one larger guide between the stripper and runners and it’s hard to improve upon that set up.

Steve

15

I agree with that 100%. All my meaning was is that a “chart” of specified distances might not get a guy there and as far as the …“good stripper and one larger guide between the stripper and runners” goes…at times Ive used dual “strippers” and at other times a single stripper with a large snake guide

16

I did some quick calculations one time when I started to question the whole weight reduction phase of my rodbuilding. If I recall correctly, I calculated the worst case difference in weights of guides from the lightest single foot wires with the heaviest of the single foot ceramic fly guides. I took that difference, and compared it to the AFTMA standard for fly lines weight per foot of fly line. Before you butcher my math, keep in mind, this exercise was for me to just get a ball park estimate of what the impact might be. I tried to stay toward the “worst case” situation.
Now, keep in mind I’m assuming that the entire weight delta is at the tip of the rod (which it isn’t) and that your fly line is level (also not true). But this gives a very conservative number. For a 6 weight rod, going to the heaviest ceramic fly guides over the lightest single foot wire guides, you will have to reduce the length being cast by approximately 2 feet to load the rod equivalently. That is assuming all of the guides are on on the tip, so the real number will be much less than that, but for our illustration, it will do.
In real terms with guides distributed on the blank, we’re talking inches of distance. So to me, in real terms when you are on the water, the difference is negligible. So I use ceramics because they are quieter, and I just like them.

17

And where can you get 1/4 inch masking tape, anyway?

18

Janns, Mudhole, Schneiders, and most places that sell rodbuilding supplies. I didn’t see it at Hook and Hackle, but you can ask.
I just slice regular tape with a razor blade to the width I want.

19

Try any hardware store (Ace etc.) paint store, or paint department at the big box stores.

20

Any automotive paint supply shop will have it. NAPA can get it if they don’t have a paint mixing facility in your locale. Get the blue tape or teh vinyl tape. They will not leave a residue and if you are using them to actually mask for a sharp line, they will give you a cleaner line than regular masking tape