I just read the thread below on glue, and am ambivalent about it. Don’t use the Crazy Glue myself, but whatever makes you happy. I am using more wax these days though, and would like to plug the most amazing wax I’ve used yet. But first, a bit of explanation.
I primarily use wax to get things to stay put, especially around the heads of full dress salmon flies. William Bailey of Ft. Wayne Indiana has sent me some incredible wax, his latest formula, that literally sticks like glue. I never used the legendary waxes of yesteryear, Overton’s Wonder Wax, etc., because I didn’t need them then for the dry flies I tied. But need it I do these days, and Bailey’s wax is unbelievable.
Bill Bailey provides specialized wools and dyed products that are something as well, but this wax, well, I’ve never used anything like it. He has black cobbler’s wax too, for those so inclined. I have no monetary interest here, just wanted to pass along a bit about a product I think is great. Almost too good at times, it’s so sticky it can be hard to close a loop or complete a whip finish. It’s not gooey, just sticky when applied to the thread. Thread avalanches are a thing of the past with this stuff, and if you’re uncomfortable with glue, this is the ticket.
Eric
Being a fan of tying waxes as well, I took a look at John’s site. There have been some changes since I was there last and I couldn’t get a price on Bill Bailey’s wax.
Thanks. Still can’t there on John’s site for some reason. Been a while since we’ve placed an order with him. I do need some seal as well, might as well try the wax too.
Myself, ive never used any tying wax… wouldnt know how or what fer to use it anyhow… i did try rubin a candle on the thread once but nothin would hold…
Finally got things sorted out with John’s site. Order placed for the seal dubbing, a Reeves Pheasant (can’t pass up a good deal like that), some of Bill Bailey’s goat dubbing and tying wax. Hopefully that dark wax will give the Primrose silk a “proper” Greenwell color.
I’ve never used crazy glue, although I almost always use some head cement. I will use wax, which I find helps with touch dubbing, and to hold things in place for dubbing loops, etc. Cobblers wax for Greenwells is nice, as REE has pointed out. One thing I have noticed is that the wax will help to hold the whip finish nicely, which means on small flies, where you don’t want to get cement all over the head, a touch of wax on the thread will help secue the finishing knot.
I’m with Bugman on this one. I started using dubbing wax when I started tying for dubbing applications then moved away from it when my mentor said to just use a little spit, yes, you read that right.
Never on dries because it will collect dirt and make it even harder to float, so I have been told.
Would love to hear about your applications for using the wax and why you feel it is better to use the wax than not use it. I’m keeping an open mind here and want to learn something new. So if you are willing to share …
On glue, I have settled on making my own rubber cement by mixing shoe goo and Toluene. I mix it outside and I don’t try to over expose myself to the chemical. I probably have more exposure danger filling my gas tank repeatedly than making the glue. The glue dries fast, soaks into the thread easily and adds to durability.
Cobbler’s wax is dark, like dark chocolate. When you wax thread with it, like Pearsall’s Primrose, it changes the colour to something you can’t buy. Also, it’s hard, like rock candy, and you have to warm it between your fingers to soften it in order to wax the thread. Once you’ve waxed your thread and tied off, it will, presumably, return to hard and acts like a glue to help hold the fly together.
For myself, I don’t have an attachment to my vice in order to lay out some thread to form a dubbing loop. I use a bit of wax so I can place dubbing fur along the thread without having to twist it on, as this way when I spin the loop the result is spikier. Again, the wax helps to bind the dubbing to the thread a bit better.
Wax is not required, and there are draw backs. On hot days, apparently, some people claim the wax melts from their flies making a mess. Others seem to think it’s cheating, or something like that, but I’m not sure what the compeition is in which one is cheating?
I often don’t bother waxing, but I have at times found that it can be useful, either for colour or to assist me in making a dubbing loop. Also, I have found it seem to secure the whip finish a bit better than no wax, so if I don’t want to apply cement I’ll sometimes use a bit of wax instead. I’ve not considered the dust factor, but then, I’m typically using it on wet flies anyway.
I remember there being a recipe for tying wax in the following book:
Fly-Tying: materials, tools, technique by Helen Shaw (1963)
I found the book at our local library, but havn’t looked at it in a while. If I remember correctly, the hard wax was partially dissolved in some mineral spirits to make a past (small ammounts prepared, the rest left as a hard chunk). Then she would use a small dabb of this to prepare the thread for dubbing.
Interesting book, pre bobbins and most of the other tools we take for granted now. But solid techniques for what I noticed.
BTW - take this for what it’s worth, I just started fly fishing and tying this past spring, so my opinion is based on a very shallow pool of experience.
I tie mostly with silk thread, which doesn’t come waxed. If you don’t wax at least some before tying, you’re going to have to make six or more wraps just to get the thread started without slipping. (Silk is smooth as, well, silk.) With wax, two at most. It also cuts down the number of turns needed in a whip finish. Waxed silk is a real pleasure to tie with. And if you ever try tying without a vise, you’ll quickly see the utility of wax.
Since most other tying thread comes pre-waxed, you’re probably already using wax without considering the fact.
I’m somewhat agnostic when it comes to using wax for dubbing.
As someone else mentioned, many traditional thread bodied patterns (Greenwell’s Glory comes immediately to mind) rely on the fact that wax changes the color of the thread. No wax, wrong color.
Clay, When you say ‘rubber cement’ do you mean like Flexament or Flex Seal? I ask because Shoe Goo and Goop (both pretty much the same product from different manufactures) are both Toluene based products. Flexament is just thinned down Toluene. To me "mixing shoe goo and Toluene" is like mixing water and H2O. Am I missing something here?
Sorry guys, not meaning to digress from the wax/glue topic.
I like the wax idea to prevent thread avalanches as Eric put it. I’m wondering though if you wax the thread at the head, will paint/lacquer stick? Many patterns get a painted head with painted eyes. When painting heads like there’s no need for head cement, but these bigger heads are the worst for thread avalanches.
If you’re using lacquer there’s no problem, at least with the lacquer and wax that I use (both made by Veniard). Remember that you’re probably using pre-waxed thread already anyway.
One potential problem with finishing the head and a heavily waxed thread is that pulling the whip finish tight will scrape wax off and cause a little lump of wax at the knot. This doesn’t make for a smooth finish; you’ll want to remove it before applying paint or lacquer.
when you mix shoe goo and toulene you get thin shoe goo. Yes you can buy the equivalent in little bottles, but its cheaper to make your own.
Mixing Toluene and shoe goo isn’t like mixing water and H2O, as the toulene in shoe goo is the stuff that keeps the other chemicals from turning solid. the toluene is only one of the chemicals in Shoe Goo. where as water is water no other chemicals.
The other men filled in wonderfully in my absence. Even in the bottle if it starts to thicken just a little more Toluene and back to the thickness or thiness that I am after. It is much cheaper and I have found nothing less expensive. Besides the Shoe Goo straight fixes waders and wading boots too. Don’t try that with Fleximent
Thanks everyone for the good comments on why you use the wax. I know that it is a traditional product and it was a nice reminder.
Ok, you’ve got me throughly confused. If Toluene is the solvent, then adding more Toluene to Shoe Goo which lists Toluene as the main ingredient (and then just petroleum distillate as the only other ingredient) does what? Make it thicker or thinner?
LeRoy Hyatt & Dave Engerbretson have repeatedly said that Shoe Goo and Goop, both Toluene based products, when thinned make Flexament and Flex Seal.
So if you have Toluene as the main ingredient, how do you thin with the same ingredient? Tell me what I’m missing here guys? And then tell what your source of straight Toluene is that you add to Shoe Goo?
"Besides the Shoe Goo straight fixes waders and wading boots too. Don’t try that with Fleximent " It would if you let it dry out to the thicker consistency of Shoe Goo wouldn’t it?
Bass Bug,
I think what you are missing, is that toluene is the #1reportable component. At least on the MSDS sheet I found. It think that, overall, toluene is a smaller percentage of the overall compound. I do know that it evaporates out of a closed tube in one heck of a hurry!:rolleyes:
These sorts of things (well, pretty much any “glue”-type deal) harden through solvent evaporation. Basically, there’s two parts mixed together in the bottle: the solvent, and the bonding material.
When you expose most of these things to air, the solvent evaporates and goes away, leaving the bonding material which is now hard and holding everything together. This is the reason why some paints stink like heck when they go on, but don’t stink once they are dry.
Whenever you want to thin one of these compounds, you add the appropriate solvent before you apply it.
Even in the bottle if it starts to thicken just a little more Toluene and back to the thickness or thiness that I am after. It is much cheaper and I have found nothing less expensive. Besides the Shoe Goo straight fixes waders and wading boots too. Don’t try that with Fleximent 