I’m getting ready to tie some little trout nymphs for a buddy, sizes 18-22. In doing a bit of reading in John Gierach’s book “Good Flies”, he uses the Tiemco 200R or Mustad 94840 for most of his nymphs. The 200R is a curved nymph hook, and the 94840 is a standard length dry hook. These two seem quite different to me. Which in your opinion would be better for the size flies I will be tying? I see a nice long shank on the 200R, and a wider hook gape on the 94840. I’ll be tying hares ears, pheasant tails, some BWO nymphs, RS2s… Some HE’s and PT’s with beads. Just getting a good mixture.
Thoughts on the two hooks? Thanks so much! This size of stuff is totally new to me, so it should be a fun project.
On small nymphs I would not use the curved hooks. They have a rather small gape which is already a problem with small hooks. If you want a longer shank use a bigger standard hook or consider a nymph hook like a one or two times long 3906b or 9671. The nymph hooks have the advantage of heavier wire which will help get them down.
I also use 3906B’s and 9671’s some time 9672. I had read sometime ago and I don’t remember that 200R is not a very good hook and some western guides will not let you use them. I cannot remember why, any way I got rid of all of mine.
Tiemco 200R: standard wire, 3 extra length hook shank (curved), sizes 4 to 22.
Mustad 3399: standard wire, standard shank, sizes 6/0 to 18
Mustad 3906: standard wire, standard shank, standard length, sizes 2 t0 20
Mustad 3906B,1extra-heavy wire, 1 extra-length shank, sizes 4-20
Mastad 80250BR, Scud/Shrimp: standard wire, 1 extra short shank (curved), sizes 10 to 22
Mustad 9671: standard wire, 2 extra long length. available sizes 2 to 18
Mustad 9672: standard wire, 3 extra long length. available size 2s to 18
I have that book , I have no idea why he uses those hooks at all. perhaps its the astetic beauty of the curve. Use the Mustad! they are less expensive for you and the gap is larger. I like John and respect his work but i feel he is off on this one. I have broken and straightened so many of the 200Rs after that book i no longer keep those hooks in my house
If you want to use a curved hook, go with a scud hook like the Dai Riki 135 (or the “emerger” version 125). The hook has a larger gap, strong wire and the curved body looks cool (don’t think the fish care one way or another); I tie a lot of my smaller Pheasant Tails on them, with/without beads. I don’t use the Tiemco 200 for anything in size #16 or smaller.
Ok guys, thanks for confirming what I had in mind. I will probably get 1x or 2x long Mustad nymph hooks like I originally planned. It just seemed odd that he would recommend a hook like the 200R for such small flies. I use the Mustad equivalent in size 6-10 for my warmwater leeches. Getting a bead on them is a huge pain!
On small flies like that, a 1X or 2X short hook has one significant advantage, especially compared to a 1X or 2X long hook.
Bigger gap. This can make a real difference in hook ups and keeping a fish on. An extra long hook in the sizes you are talking about will have a proportionately [SIZE=1]smaller gap.[/SIZE]
The Dai-Riki 135 is a 1X short and 1X heavy hook, down-eye with a very pronounced curve scud hook. I personally don’t like them for nymphs, although they are a great midge larva hook. They are a very strong hook, and while it seems some folks have had problems with quality, I have used them for six years and very seldom found a bad one.
The Dai-Riki 125 is a 2X short hook, straight-eye with basically a straight shank. Because of the large gap, it looks a bit more curved than it really is. I really like this one, and am just basically seconding Scott’s recommendation. One of the best fly tiers I know personally, kglissmeyer, uses it for a lot of his nymphs, also.
Dai-Riki hooks are very reasonably priced, if that is a consideration, although I am not sure how available they are in any given market.
I’m with the DaiRiki 125 school of thought on this one due to the larger gape - more hookups. Here are two I tied recently for FAOL both on DaiRiki 125’s.
Kelly and John,
That makes a lot of sense now, after seeing Kelly’s pics. The 125’s should do for both “regular” and bead heads then, huh? I have used some Dai-Riki hooks and don’t mind them, but all my experience is stuff in size 8-14. How do fish even see stuff as small as 20’s as food??? That amazes me.
It’s what they do for a living, literally. I had 3" trout (no kidding 3" trout!) on the Henry’s Fork snub #22 emergers; finally hooked one of those b.stards when I was able to dig up a #24.
I’m amazed at how small of critters those big fish will eat. Stomach samples have proven time and again that very, very small midges make up the bulk of their diet most of the year. Recently we fished the Vernon Bridge stretch of the Henry’s Fork and I finally had to go down to a size #22 red thread midge tied on a DaiRiki 125 hook and I started really nailing them. It’s amazing to me that such a thing works, but, as Scott said, it’s their world and what they do day-in and day-out to survive. A hint for using those smaller hooks, is to tie them on with some sort of loop knot - I use a Duncan Loop - as it allows those smaller flies to ride fairly freely as they move through the water, plus I can use 5x tippet without spooking the fish. I think the un-natural movement of a small clinch-knotted nymph doesn’t look quite right to the fish, whereas one tied with a loop allows it to move freely and more naturally.
A hook you might consider, if you happen to have some, or find a few of the ones that still can be had are Mustad 94859s. These hooks are a straight eye hook, which means in the smaller sizes the gap you have is more effective than with a turned down eye hook, because with a turned down eye hook, the eye itself effectively blocks part of the gap.
I have gone to this type hook for sizes 18 and smaller, for drys, and nymphs. (Well, as soon as I use up what I have left of Mustad 94840s and 3906Bs.) An added advantage is that the straight eye hook is easier to tie a head on. On the little bitty hooks with down eyes, I have to fight a tendancy for the thread to slip down and off the hook. To counteract this, I mount the hook at an “up” angle in the vise when tying the head. Less problems with tying the head exist using a straight eye hook.
In his book “Mastering the Art of Fly Tying,” Richard Talleur writes about hook style and hooking effectiveness. Talleur, besides being a commercial fly tyer, tying instructor, excellent fly fisherman, and experimenter, is, I believe, an engineer if memory serves. He did a fairly extensive scientific study on hooking effectiveness, and what he found is that standard length hooks just plain hook better than either short shank hooks or long shank hooks. He also writes about hook shape, and found that a straight eye hook had better hooking power in the small sizes than do the down eye hook, precisely due the interference with the hook gap with the down eye hook. That said, in very small sizes of hooks there is something to be said for wide gap hooks, because at some point the gap size becomes a bigger factor than does the hooking angle.
One other approach that has been used is to tie “Clyde Style” wet flies. This has been done in Scotland for 150 years or more, and has been a very effective approach. It amounts to tying a small fly on a larger than expected hook. For example tie a #20 size fly on a #16 hook. If you do a search on the internet you should be able to find something on Clyde style flies.
One advantage is that you have a hook size that is much better for hooking and holding fish.
You might also take a look at Donald Nicolson’s site. CHeck out Clyde and Tummel style flies. 