Hello all,
Just built a 4wt and put a 4wt double taper on it. casts very nice at 10’-35’ but seems to run out of steam after that. I’m used to fishing 6-8wts and this is my first time with a rod this light and with a DT line. I’m trying not to overpower it, and I think I’m not. My question is are the lighter rods more useful for shorter distances and accuracy, or can you throw out 50’ if needed? I don’t need it but I built the rod so I’m trying to make sure everything is right with it…I can throw long casts on the upper weights but, It really not to practical where I fish…I could have the line wrong on this build or it could be what it is…maybe I gotta get over this distance thing…when judging a rod, especially when I’m going to use it for smaller water.
Janus
Janus,
It’s not uncommon on a private build to find that the rod ends up doing better with a differetn line weight than that ‘listed’ for the blank by the manufacturer.
Lots of variables in how a rod is finished, from the weight of the guides, their number, and the weight of the finish that can effect the performance.
There are methods out there (the ‘common cents system’ is one I’m familiar with) that let you measure your particular rod and determine the correct line for it. It takes into account all the variables in the finished product.
I you don’t want to learn one of those, then try a line or two up and one line down and see if it makes a difference.
As far as casting distance goes, given calm conditions, your 4wt. should cast into the 50 to 60 foot ranges easily with the proper line on it.
Remember that all lines aren’t ‘equal’ either. They are built to a ‘range’ and one four weight of a given taper may weight more or less in the first 30’ than another taper from even the same manufacturer.
Good Luck!
Buddy
I suspect that a comfortable 35 feet with a four weight is about right, and that using a different line would not make much difference. I do most of my smaller water fishing with a medium fast three weight with a double taper line and I doubt that I ever get 30 feet of line out. My five weight with a double taper or full sinking line will go fifty feet with a decent single haul. On that basis, what you are doing with the four weight seems to be right in the bracket. It is only fair to mention that I am not much of a caster, and that others who are more proficient than me may have a very different bracket to refer to.
As far as distance goes, probably 75 per cent plus of the fish I hook are within 20-25 feet, and most of the other 25 per cent are hitting streamers on bigger water. So distance just isn’t a factor, routinely, in my experience.
If you are going to use your four weight in some casting competition, try some other lines and perfect your double haul. If you are going to go fishing, enjoy the rod for what it is.
If you are going to use your four weight in some casting competition, try some other lines and perfect your double haul. If you are going to go fishing, enjoy the rod for what it is.
Thanks I needed to hear that…
Janus
Dollars to Donuts says it’s probably that DT line. Try it out with a WF and I bet you will get the distance back. After you perhaps prove it to yourself though…put that DT back on and lawn cast it until you are hitting those same marks.
It also may be that you need to let the line unroll a bit more on the back cast. I find that I can get away with more of my terrible casts when I’m fishing with a beefy shooting head; the more “limp” lines have a lot less tolerance for my sloppiness.
You didn’t say what blank you built the rod on, or if it’s slow, medium or fast action. Almost every rod I built this year I’ve had to overline at least one line weight to get the performance I like. All have been fast or medium fast blanks from Forecast, Dan Craft and PacBay. I was told that my casting style needed improvement if I could not cast my 7’9" 3wt rod using 3wt WF line. Maybe so, since I try to learn from everyone who takes an interest in my improvement, but by putting my 4wt line on my 3wt rod, I could cast effortlessly to 50’ without a double haul (I rarely cast this far anyway on a normal fishing day). With this fast action rod I can also roll cast 40’ to 50’ as well (without a tail wind). I decided to not change my casting style, but to utilize my 4wt line since that’s what worked well for me. After all, I use my equipment for fishing and not competition casting. I did employ some tips to my casting style that I learned from JC at the MI FI this year to increase my distance and accuracy, but have not done any wholesale changes per se.
I have read in several places that many of the blanks today are underrated, and as another reader suggested, using the Common Sense System to determine the rod’s actual line weight might be something to consider. I have not done this on my rods, but just changed lines to fit my style.
That’s my nickle’s worth.
Joe
It’s a rainforest blank 3pc 8’ 4wt. I would consider it medium to medium slow…I like slower action rods. But I have built a 6wt on a Cabelas Fisheagle blank that is probably the slowest I have, can feel it flex under the cork. But I have to line it with 5wt or else it is a stick in the mud…I’ll experiment with this 4wt and see what happens.
Casting is in the ability of the person casting. I think it is more mental then anything(for me anyway) but I can cast a weight forward line a lot farther then a double taber. Double taber does not seem to hold the energy a weight forward does to me anyway. If I am fishing a small stream and need to roll cast I will definately use a DT, otherwise it is a WF line all the time. Just my 2 cents and my casting abilities.
Does this make sense???
How much line are you aerializing? You have a fairly slow rod [assumption] …and are using a DT line…if you are aerializing greater than 30 ft of line you are beginning to add more weight…[relative to a WF]…so you are beginning to overline …maybe that particular rod doesn’t like that…or adjust your stroke …
Janus;
In hopes that everyone’s “two cents” are adding up,so you can afford yet another rod blank, I’d like to throw two more of my own, pennies, at you on your question…
Everything that’s already been said has been really good, solid, advice for using a 4wt.
I'm super weird enough, to really love all fly rods from my 1wt. to my 4wts for local, small stream, fishing for Searuns. In these smaller, coastal, streams and even the rivers near me, a "long distance cast" is about 30 to 45 feet. On occasion, in the right "spots" though, I'll need to throw 60 to 70 feet to get my fly where it needs to be so the Searun can see it........laugh at it like hell........... then take a natural.
But, I still may need that distance at times, regardless. I’ve tried so many lines, on these “lightweights”, I could supply a fly shop with inventory. However, that’s also “how we learn things”, someone told me one time!?
So, the last two lines I've tried, (and finally settled on as "the best for what I want"), on my lightweights have been AirFlo's "Ridgeline" in 4 wt. and the Wulff "Triangle Taper" in the same weight.
The "Ridgeline" added,( without my doing anything new)........about 15' to my standard cast on a 4wt. soft action rod I'd built. It's simply in just the design of the line's outer finish that does this, plain and simple.
The Triangle Taper, though is really my favorite because is casts with the weight of a WF line, on a light rod, yet due to its unique taper it presents and roll casts exactly like a DT line, which of course, isn't as easy to do with a standard WF.
Again, just another 2 cents worth, added to your rod blank fund!
Paul :lol:
I fish mostly 4 weights… a new one coming this week (I hope). One of my favorites is a Winston 8’ TMF model… this rod was DESIGNED to fish close in… 40 feet or less.
If it’s distance you’re looking for perhaps overlining the rod will work… but maybe a 5 or 6 weight rod will provide the distance casting you seek but you may lose the presentation.
Later,
an Oregonian
Thanks all really appreciate the responses. I’m really glad I posted the question. I think I fell into the trap of judging a rod based on how far it can be cast by me. I’m not the best caster and can throw 50’ on a good day with no wind and a 5-8wt, but have no use for casting that far. I spend way too much time casting on the lawn on my lunch breaks at work and not enough on the water. Work, young kids blah same old story… Casting on a lawn is kinda limited so I guess distance is all you have to shoot for. So, I guess I need to take this thing out and see how it does. The water temps in the tribs here ar in the low 30’s and there are steelhead in the rivers don’t want to try it out on them, would tire the fish way too much…but gotta get off the lawn and into some water…
Thanks Again,
Janus
Here is just my take on it. First off, the placements of the guides make a big difference. Mike McFarland helped us find this out and at times one extra guide cane create a perfect bend. Try tying the line to a milk jug and lit the rod forming the arch. Are there kinks, or is it smooth?
I have said before also, that DT is a thicker running line than WF and I personally think it has an effect going through the guides. I feel I have to muscle DT to hit that 60’ mark were I don’t with a WF. BUT! the DT makes more accurate cast.
It is primarily the caster, but line can make a difference in weather it is easy or not.
Hi Janus. A couple of things. First off, I have tried the Sage ZXL 4 weight and it can easily double haul 60 to 70 feet for a low intermediate caster.
Second: I have a tfo finese 4 weigh 7.9 weight that I can easily throw good loops at 40-45 feet and can double haul easily to 55 feet.
Third. Go to a fly shop in your town, ask to try out a 4 weight and cast to 45 feet with no hauls. Ask the staff how your casts are. They will give you some tips, and if they say you need a major overhaul, stop the practice on grass and save up your time for casting lessons. It is like a golfer with a horrible swing spending hours practicing just reinforcing his horrible swing.
PS: what fly line are you using?
PPS: with a 4 weight on a small stream I have found myself with a deep hool in front of me, and the need to cast a good 50 feet (with a dry fly) to catch fish. Their are most definitely situations where not being able to cast 60 feet will limit you catching fish, this may be because you need to get 5 or 10 feet of drift,
Ok I am going to try some different lines. I did a static test on the rod and the guides follow the bend very smooth. I’m using cortland 333 4dt now I’m going to try and go up to a 5wf and also try a different 4dt that I have here(northern sports?) . I built it for delicate smaller water fishing. Outside of steelhead and stocked rainbows there aren’t many trout situations here in NE ohio…and the stocked get caught the first couple of days by bait chuckers and powerbaiters so it’s smallies and panfish really. But I might make a trip or two out to western PA this spring so I am trying to get a rod that I will enjoy fishing…have a threeforks 3wt and an orvis that would be fine. But, get more satisfaction out of fishing a rod that I built…
Thanks again,
Janus
Your question got a really good discussion going - and I, for one, have picked up a number of very good points from the others participating.
I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that overlining a rod will improve close in casting and underlining a rod will improve distance. This general principle is consistent with the comments several people have made during this discussion.
Going to a three weight double taper might be an interesting experiment, while you are at it.
Keep in mind that if distance casting is not required, there are som other advantages to a double taper - like when one end gets worn out, you can respool to the other end and have a new line at no cost.
Janus,
I also live in NE Ohio (Mentor). If you are serious about building another rod, I have several rods that I’ve built that you could try out to see if you like the blank before making the move with the next rod (Forecast, Dan Craft, Pac Bay & Generic cheapo). PM me and we can get together on some local water so you can try them out.
Joe
[quote=“Joe_Valencic”]
Janus,
I also live in NE Ohio (Mentor). If you are serious about building another rod, I have several rods that I’ve built that you could try out to see if you like the blank before making the move with the next rod (Forecast, Dan Craft, Pac Bay & Generic cheapo). PM me and we can get together on some local water so you can try them out.
Joe[/quote]
Joe, you da man…that is so cool of you. That is why I love this sport/life style 8)
Joe thanks I pm’d you.
Janus
Update. Found a wf5 really gets it out there in a hurry. Another dt4 I tried was better as well. The new cortland 333ht I was using might be suspect…