I like the Castwell knot for line to leader. Will it work for tying tippet to the looped tippet end of the furled leader?
Gemrod
I use a clinch knot for furled leader and tippet. I generally use 4-6X tippet and have not had any knot failures. Either with Mono or Fluro.
Gem:
I don’t see why a Castwell couldn’t be tied but I THINK one of the ways the knot holds on a leader to fly line connection is due to the hard nylon jambing into the softer fly line coating. So it MAY not hold that great with a furled leader being a nylon to thread or nylon to nylon connection. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try it.
Maybe I’m wrong again but wouldn’t that also mean cutting off a portion of the furled leader when changing tippets? I can’t believe that would be a good thing.
I know you know this already but when I use a furled leader with a Shorb loop on the end I either make a loop in my tippet section and do the loop to loop thing or I have even used a Clinch Knot or Improved Clinch Knot to attach my tippet to the loop.
Just my $ .02
Wait to see if WarrenP and/or Jack Hise respond. They both fish furled leaders exclusively, & I BELIEVE they are both huge fans of the Castwell knot.
Mike
Gemrod -
Most of my furled leaders* have a tip ring, but on those with shorb loops, I like to use a perfection loop on the tippet and loop-to-loop it to the furled leader. It is a very efficient method, and makes changing out to fresh tippet or to a different size tippet very simple.
For what it is worth, on a couple of occasions, the end of a furled leader with a tip ring has worn to the point that the tip ring has come off. I’ve secured the furl by tying an overhand knot at the end of the leader and trimming it close. I then added tippet by tying a clinch knot around the leader with the tippet and slipping it down to the overhand knot and bringing it tight.
The clinch knot / overhand knot connection works very nicely. If you want to eliminate the loop on the tip end of the furled leader, you might give that a try. Just be careful to not cut the leader when you are changing out the tippet.
John
- I build and use thread furled leaders only.
Thank you all for the replies. Good information. Tuber…I believe Jack uses a clinch knot and Warren uses a Eugene knot.
Scott…I like the technique you explained after the ring goes south. Just an idea for you if you like the loop. You are already tying an overhand knot. Why not just make a loop…ie double the furled leader back and make a loop…THEN tie the overhand knot and you a have a loop back on your furled leader to use. (of course cut the tag end off)
Gemrod
PS…Scott…you don’t use the tip ring on your floating leaderes do you?
Bam…I think you are correct. Tippet end with Castwell probably not a good knot at all for the reasons you stated. Thanks. Makes sense.
I don’t know about Scott but I do. 
I recently took possession of some of Mr. Hise’s thread creations with tip rings. It was my first time using a thread furled leader with tip rings and I can only report fantastic results with a dry fly and floating leader. I use Loon Payette as a floatant. The stuff doesn’t melt in the heat!
BTW - Another thing I tried that helps greatly with thread furled leaders is to clean them periodically. Since I’m diligent about cleaning my fly lines with soap & water after each use; the last time I cleaned a fly line with a thread leader attached to it I left the leader attached and cleaned that too. I allowed it to dry completely overnight and redressed it the next morning with Payette Paste.
It floated MUCH better after the cleaning.
Bam,
VERY interesting icw floaters. Thanks for the information. I don’t really know why…but I really like the furled over the mono leaders. My friend argues that you still tie knots on each end so what’s the big deal. He also states no need for them on sinking lines. Terrific comment to clean the leader#! AND to clean it while on the line. Love it. Oh, my other friends objection to the ring is the flash in the water. He wants nothing to scare fish. But will use a gold beadheaded fly! Go Figure. I think I like the furled just because for me they are so easy to deal with over the mono leaders. I made one out of Coats & Clark Spinach Green Dual Purpose. It does not state the diameter nor the strength. Wanted dark green. It LOOKS like a fairly large diameter furled leader but man does it have stretch. Thing is like a rubber band. Doubt you will ever break a tippet with it or yank the hook out of of fish. Haven’t fished it…but it really is limp and stretchy. Should…work great.
Thanks loads…
Gem
John,
When you cut the tag end off your overhand knot you will see frayed ends. Does this mean the knot will eventually come loose? MUST you coat it with glue? Or is it trustworthy even though you can see the frayed ends. Point is to have a knot simply to tie on the water and that’s it. No tool needed and no fooling around witih glue. Just tie the knot and go at it. Is the fraying appearance nothing to worry about?
Gem
Gemrod -
The simple overhand knot, compared to a loop tied as you described, means less bulk, which is why I decided to go that way.
As to floating furled leaders generally, mine don’t float and I don’t try to make them do so. The leader ( furled from Danville 210 Flymaster Plus ) will sink, but it will not sink even a small dry fly ( size 18 or 20 parachute, for example ) in a moderate to quick current, even with a dropper in moderate current. So whether a tip ring will sink the leader is not relevant to the way I fish them.
I used a leader with the overhand knot on a good number of outings before I got around to replacing it with a fresh one with a tippet ring. Yes - the ends frayed, but the knot held up and it worked just fine.
I’ve considered dispensing with the shorb loop and / or tip ring and finding an effective way to “knot” the end of the leader, but haven’t gotten around to it yet. Another thing I did was to replace the standard tip ring with a tungsten bead, for getting unweighted nymphs down, but I haven’t gotten around to trying that one yet.
John
Gem:
The ring on my leaders is 1.5mm in diameter. The distance from my fly (and the fish targeted) is at least 5-6 feet. If the fish sees THAT…
…I’m giving up! 
I use THREAD furled leaders now for 100% of my dry fly fishing and maybe 70% of my nymphing in shallower water. Some of us love them and others are unimpressed. All I know is I have fished with leaders of all types: extruded nylon, knotted nylon, flat butt mono, braided butt mono, poly coated nylon butt, furled mono, and every other new fangled leader that has come down the road.
For me and the way I like to fish the most which is LONG leaders and dry flies on bigger water and shorter leaders on smaller waters, the turnover of thread furled leaders is fantastic!
John and Bam
Thanks for the sharing of the knowledge. I appreciate it very much. I just know I like them. I think it is plain just because they are easier for me to see, handle, and deal with than a 9’ clear piece of mono.
Bam…boy, sounds like you have had a lot of fun with a lot of butts. <grin>
I furled one out of Coats & Clark .005 nylon and one out of 4lb Vanish Transition Fluorcarbon. Both were a lot stiffer than thread. I like the thread a lot. Limp. I like soft things.
BTW I am just using Kat’s video which starts out as 66". I put a movable furring strip in the middle of my end pegs and can adjust it to any stop after I twist. After I spun the 66" and furled I only had a 4’-9" leader. So I put in more holes for longer leaders.
I am working up to asking about my formula. Using her figures I calculated that first section is 30% and the next two sections are 35% of the beginning length. Is that an ok formula to go by for up to say 7-8’ leader length? Example…7’=84"x110% (lose 10% in furling)= 92.4 round off to 92.5. Then I add an inch for each loop so 94.5 is what I use for end to end length for starters. Then I measure 7’ plus two inches from the tippet end peg, and spin each leg to that 7’-2" point. Then once I let it furl and put a loop in each end…it should be very close to a 7’ leader.
Is my 30x35x35 percentages good enough?
Thanks for any answers or opinions in advance.
Gem
"Is my 30x35x35 percentages good enough? "…YEP
Gemrod -
I don’t use Kathy’s furling system. My furling jig is hand powered, for both twisting and furling. I use some set formulas given to me by the fellow who taught me the furling process using a set up similar to my own.
I do a 10-8-6 with a final length of about 64" with 40% butt, 30% mid and 30% tip, which is good for up to my 5 wt rod and about 5’ of up to 2X tippet. I’ve done a 14-12-10 in the same 40-30-30 configuration, which does better on the 5 wt and will probably do okay on the 7 wt, if and when I get around to it.
I haven’t tried to “max out” my tippet length, so I really do know how much I could put on and turn over effectively. Another thing I may get around to on a slow day, one of these days.
John
I bought tippet rings when I started furling, but I much prefer to use a loop to loop (using a non-slip knot on the mono, not the weaker perfection loop).
Even a Shorb loop at the tip end of the furled leader strikes me as superfluous, but looping straight to the end of the leader may require a threader of some sort.
My furled leaders formulas are simply based on the number of inches of thread in each stage. Just a little math to work out how long to make each segment so that there is a percent reduction in the amount of thread from one segment to the next. (Spreadsheet job.)
I’ve had the Castwell knot slip with a furled leader once before, but only after trying to dislodge a fly from tree limbs. If you pull on it the knot will hold, but I wouldn’t count on it to stay 100% of the time using some of the common tricks for dislodging flies from trees that involved "springing: the line or whatever you would call it.
I think monofilament “bites” into the flyline better making this much less of a concern when not using a furled leader.
Duckster,…thanks for the confirmation. I am sort of an incurable optimist…buit do go with the averages a lot. Soooooo…thank you for the affirmation that the leaders I make will suffice.
Gemrod
Pomper…etc. Thank you for your opinion. All info goes into a brain deficient data bank. Appreciate all advice. I must disagree witih you though. Without the shorb’s loop…and just tieing something into the furled leader tippet end…you are halving the strength of the knot…because you did not double over the loop. Just my opinion…the only one I am an expert on.
Gemrod
Bill,
Thank you for the post. I have no need for the tree release technique. Sooo…I will stay with JC’s knot. Can you imagine over 5o lakes to choose from and 800 miles of trout streams and no need for the techniques? Well…if you fish certain ones you will need some tricks up your sleeve. The fortunate thing is all the places I fish…that is not a concern. Pretty darn lucky huh?
Thanks…
Gemrod
come fish with me…I will prove it to you
Gemrod
I have tested the strength of my UNI thread furled leaders with Shorb loops. My method was to test the leaders against progressively larger sections of tippet, which was attached to the leader with loop to loop. When the leader broke, the point of failure was always at the integral loop, where it attached to the standing part of the leader to form the Shorb loop. From this result, I have perhaps leaped to the conclusion that the Shorb loop does not add significant strength to the connection. If we test against the loop to loop connection of tippet to the integral leader loop, we can find the truth.