This post is to stay in compliance with the federal highjacking laws, even though Byron’s post on size 17 hooks really invited a highjacking.
First I will admit, I might have dozed off and missed it earlier. If so maybe someone can redirect me. BUT, what is the criteria for determining what size a fish hook is? It seems to me hook size is pretty much like women clothes sizes, it is whatever size the maker says it is.
:tieone:
Jesse,
My answer to your question would be that the hook size for a pattern would be based on what insect, nymph, minnow, etc., size is. The tyer is trying to tie something that “looks” like the real thing and the tyer would want the hook size to be close to that size. You would also want to take into consideration where the tyer lives and fishes because “bug” size will be different for different bodies of water. Small mountain streams may produce smaller insects compared to larger rivers. If I am going to “copy” someone’s SBS tying instructions for a certain pattern, I may change the hook size so that the finished fly would be closer to the size of the “bug” for my waters. I have a couple “go-to” flies that were submitted on larger hooks and meant to be fished for steelhead and since I do not have any steelhead fishing close to me, I downsized the hook for my waters for trout. I done this because I really liked the “looks” of the pattern and felt that it would possibly be a good trout pattern.
So, with the above thoughts in mind, if you are trying to match the hatch in your area, you need to match the hook size to the hatch.
Just my opinion…
Obviously, I did not communicate my thought / question clearly. I was asking why is a size 14 hook a size 14 and why is a size 14 nymph hook almost the same size as a size 8 aberdeen hook. Like women clothes size the number really doesn’t seem to mean a lot and the assignment of the number seems to have no criteria other than I made the hook and I’m going to call it a size 14.
" Like women clothes size the number really doesn’t seem to mean a lot and the assignment of the number seems to have no criteria other than I made the hook and I’m going to call it a size 14."
Since there is no recognized international standard for hook sizes Uncle Jesse, I think you just answered your question…
Cliff
I like what Mustad is trying to do with standardizing hook sizes and gaps and all but I don’t think it will ever catch on with the other manufacturers. If just one other big brand would support some kind of standards I think it would get all the majors to talk about it.
Uncle Jesse I think your comparision to women’s clothes is about as spot on as it could be.
Having served on a national fire code committee, I fully realize how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to get hook manufactures together and get them to agree a standard size 14 dry fly hook will have a shank 12.5mm long with a gap of 7 mm, or whatever it come out to in measurements. Fly tyers internationally are not apt to unite and demand it so, I guess it is what it is.
Having recently celebrated our 46th anniversary I long ago gave up giving my wife any kind of clothes. Really the only thing I can think of I may be able to buy of the correct size is jewelry and dark chocolate.
I think technically Hooks size is based on hook gap, not shank length. So, a size 14 2xL hook would be the same shank length as a size 10.
However with the many new hooks shapes, this has gotten more confusing. If you look at Klinkhamer hooks or some of the newer emerger hooks (eg, DaiRiki 125) size can be very misleading. The TMC 2488, for example, is described as “3X Wide, 2X Short” which seems redundant and / or contradictory – I don’t know which.
With these newer hooks, I think you need to see them in person to figure out what size fly they will tie.
Agree completely John!
When I first started tying, your choice was 94840 or 94840… in dry flies.
Most folks do not understand that the hook # referred to the gap/gape of the hook…
I attacked this subject here http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/bobboese/bobboese20090810.php and nothing has improved.
If we could get enough people to “play along” we could change this. Its simple. We set up our own system, get one or two hook manufacturers to put our index on their packaging, and then don’t buy hooks that don’t have the information.
Cheers,
C.
While a standardized system for all mfgrs would be great, and save us all a lot of explaining when we tell one another, “It’s a 16”, the number of variables involved that would have to be included in any standard designation is a little daunting, and even if each one had, say, a letter or number code instead of a full value, the final description of a hook would be fairly long.
Shank length (would end up having to be in mm for a worldwide system)
Gap (same)
bend shape
shank shape
point type
barbed or barbless or microbarb or…
wire diameter
wire steel type (hardness, carbon content, stainless versus non, and so on)
finish
eye shape (up, down, ring, etc)
eye size
and so on. I am sure I missed a few.
I look at it this way. Having such a confusion of hook designations and such makes it that much easier for me to not tell my fishing buddies what I am catching them on! :lol:
Oh, wait, they watch me buy hooks. Oh well.
I don’t know a .075 7x15 straight dry fly hook or .127 5x20 down eye nymph hook sound like somethng I could get used to looking for, kind of like buying a 215/50/16 tire makes sense to most of us nowday, but it was not always that way. Us Americans would learn pretty quick that .075mm is close to .0030 in. Most hooks are carbon steel, barbed, if you are doing something different add a BL, MB for barbless, microbarb, SS for stainless.
I finally gave up after years of trying to figure it all. I have fourteens that are the same as some twelves. I have eights the size of tens. You know all about it.
A corollary to this issue is that referring to an insect by hook size is rather imprecise. For example, if someone says fish are taking a size 12 mayfly, you really don’t know what that means without seeing their fly or knowing what hook type and size they are using. For my purposes, I carry a small metric ruler on stream and measure bugs in mm for reference. So, for example, I don’t think of tricos as size 20 or 22, but rather as 4-5 mm.
On the positive side, I do appreciate many of the new hook styles especially those emerger hooks (eg, TMC 2488 and DaiRiki 125) that allow you to tie small flies with better hook gap. In sizes 18 and smaller, these hooks are much better than the “standard” hooks.
You ALMOST sound like someone who might tie “in between” sized hooks???
Byron