“If you’re a good enough fly fisher to buy a $800-$1000 rod you should be able to cast both just as well, right?”
Boy, did you say a mouthful there 7star.
Many new FF’ers believe that because they spend that much on a rod, they will be able to cast it well. Many good casters, that like you say, can cast both well, no longer spend for performance, but either spend less or spend more for personal gratification through the aquisition of very fine equipment. It’s what they like, not what they need.
Does anyone know if they produce a grass rod that one would feel secure with doing dorado and other SW targets?
…lee s.
Interesting post. A really good drummer can make a cheap set of drums sound good, a really bad drummer can make a very expensive set of drums sound bad. Good photographers can get great photos out of ordinary camera equipment.
It’s not how long the rope is, it’s how you dangle the bucket!
7Star,
I have never snaped my Arm Casting any Fly Rod weither or not it was Graphite or Bamboo,it's a smooth stroke for me.Fast Action Rods to begin with a generally for Large Rivers but many will argue!I've had people tell me Fast Action Rods are good for small Streams and short Casts when others swear by Large Rivers and use Med Flex-Full Flex for small Rivers and Streams.I have you ever Cast a Bamboo Rod??If so what type of line did you use?I Cast Sci-Anglers,Cortland and Wulff Triangle Taper Lines and can say it wasn't all good feel until I got Cortland Sylk!Wulff Lines were ok but Sylk felt so much better!The bigger Diameter Lines I feel over Rods the Bamboo Rod.While Sylk being a smaller diameter was the perfect match for my Rods.So what I'm basically telling you is to Cast a Bamboo Rod with either Silk or Sylk Line to see the difference in Rod Performance when Casting Bamboo.Bamboo takes getting used to but when you hear your Rod,you'll be Casting Tight Loops just like any Graphite Rod.If you like Graphite,try Casting a Quadrate Rod.Alot say that that's the closest you can get to Graphite but that's just Opinions!In all,I think it's just about Casting style and preference as you stated.
I made some mistakes so will clarify them.
The bigger Diameter Lines I feel over Rods the Bamboo Rod
The bigger diameter Lines I feel overload the Bamboo Rod.
DVC,
I’m a little curious what you meant by your post. No offense taken, but do you mean that a good salesman can sell a bad product. I am of the school of thought that “The best products will sell themselves.” Kusse’s rods will be in demand forever. Sage’s top of the line, will by and by, be replaced by something new. I would love to own both, but if given one option, I’ll take Ron’s sticks every time.
And I think Rolemodel has it right. Put Sylk on all your grass rods.
A free gift waits for those who ask.
Lotech Joe
[This message has been edited by LotechJoe (edited 24 March 2005).]
LotechJoe, no offense meant.
I think I may gotten off ot the subject a bit.
I agree that good products will sell themselves, but certainly there are plenty of bad products sold as well.
Basically, I was alluding to the fact that a good fly caster should be able to cast either graphite or bamboo, fast or slow action. Not that I could.
Sorry for the confusion, not sure how I got off the subject so badly.
DVC,
I think anyone who knows how to correctly Cast is gonna be able to adjust to the Action Rod they Cast no matter what Action it is.The most ackward part of adjusting will be the first time Casting the Rod,once you get the feel for Action the timing will automatically come.Like I said in my other Post reguarding the Topic of Graphite-Bamboo,Lines are just as important as our preference of Rod your Casting."I feel" the Line is what makes your Rod perform it's right actions!I love Sci-Anglers Mastery Lines and Wulff Lines!Cortland is ok but cracks to easy even when you maintence the Line.I always clean my Lines for better Shootability,Performence and longer Line life.I recently Bought Orvis Wonderline Advantage",I was in a rush and the only Fly Shop in the Area I was Fishing was a Orvis Endorsed Store".That Lines was a waste of my Money as of now.I'm fishing in Cold-"Spring" Weather and the line seems to become very stiff making it a uncomfortable Casting experience which I have never experienced with Sci-Anglers,Wulff and Cortland Lines in Cold Weather!So Lines do matter and no matter what Line you use or have used.I'm sure everyone has found a Line that they feel Performs best for you Rods.
I believe any experienced good caster can cast any rod. However, that doesn’t mean we enjoy casting any/all rods. Rods are a very personal thing, and why we like one rod over other is just as personal.
I’ll add to that, casting a rod, and fishing a rod are two different things.
LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
Fast/Slower materials issue…as already noted.
Fast rods handle sink tips, sinking lines & shooting heads better and more flyfisherman are using them.
The main reason bamboo cost’s more is…hand workmanship from small builders.
I will take graphite as a whole or glass in lighter weights. I do appreciate the workmanship and tradition in bamboo.
As a cane rod builder myself, i thnk there not many people understand what kind of expenses are involved in building one.
reel seats- $35-$65
ferrules - $35-$45 per set (1 set for two piece rods)
cork- $2-$2.50 per 1/2 inch ring (12 rings for a 6in grip)
agate stripper-$25
snakes,tip tops,winding check, hook keeper-$20
rod bag-$7
Tube-$25
So you see that comes out to close to $200 and that does not even include all the glues,varnish,color preservers, silk thread,sandpaper,steel wool,brushes, string for binding,razor blades,disposable rubber gloves for glueing up,thinners, and much more that you may not even think of,not to mention drying cabinet, string binder,expensive plaing forms, cost of raw cane, and lots of bandaids and asprins! Matt
The way I see it and IMHO, Its what is perceived to be best that sells not what is really best. The thing that rod makers have the competition with each other about is weight! In order to build lighter and lighter rods (continuing the trend that has been around for hundreds of years) higher and higher modulus materials are necessary. High modulus is not high strength and the manufacturers are playing the hairy edge of the strength/weight problem winding up with blanks that are too stiff in the butt section (thats where they would break if they used thinner walls or larger diameters there). The sales people take over after the rod goes to market. They extol the virtues of what they have named a “fast” action. This term probably derived from the “fast” taper ratio of years ago. Very few newcomers to the sport given the choice of a “fast” vs “moderate” or “slow” action rod would want anything but “fast”. They’ve been hyped to believe that fast=good and slow=bad. The term fast is HYPE and has as many meanings as there are sales people. The practice of using a line a couple of sizes larger than what the rod is made for (supposidly)is IMHO an effort to get a rod to load close in. If the materials manufacturers can make higher modulus stuff with more strength you will see the stiffness in the butt section diminish in the future. IMHO it should never have been put there in the first place.
Ol’ Bill
Bill,
I don't know about overlining a Rod a couple of Weights up from the Rod's Weight Stated!I would think the higher Weighter Line would really Stress the Rod maybe causing it to lose it's Original Action at some point in time.I've heard of underlining a Rod to make a Moderate-Med Action Rod become Fast but don't know about overlining.
I couldnt resist throwing my hat in the ring a second time…Ha ha
Lots of great stuff here. I believe that from all the observations above LF pretty much summed it up. A rod is a very personal thing. Foget the sales pitches for graphite or Boo. Try some of both if you can,(and dont overlook the small builders) in various lenghts and actions.
Decide on your own which rod meets your needs .
The price should be looked at only when those decisions are made. Unless you are the type that has to have the latest, keep in mind the rod you buy used with care will more than likely outlast you.
[This message has been edited by Smernsky (edited 26 March 2005).]
Rolemodel,
I’m not an expert on overlining/uderlining since I don’t do it. Although I have some expensive graphites and some glass and bamboo rods, I looked them over pretty darn well before buying. Overlining is not done in our (eastern) areas as much as it is out west. As I understand their reasoning they need to be able to cast into strong winds and therefore go for a rod of a large size. When they go to a small stream with weaker winds they find that the rod won’t load to their liking so they use a larger line. The larger heavier line loads the rod better close in. What is needed here is a rod with more (what I call) latitude, the ability to load with a wide range conditions.
Maybe someone from the West can explain it better than I…and if I’m wrong, I’m sure they will.
Ol’ Bill
i cannot comment on cane rods. ive never cast one, or even held one in my hands, though it is something i would someday enjoy being able to try.
however, as far as action goes, its a preference, as is everything else in this sport. i prefer the feel i get from a faster action rod. it gives me a quicker pace in my cast and “keeps me on my toes” by not allowing me to slow my casting stroke as much as with a slower action rod. i own both, and fish both, but my preference is a light weight, light line, med./fast action rod.
as for the cars–i got a '66 Dodge Dart. its my dream car since im a kid. no mid-life crisis here. just a dream and a car to customize 
.
[This message has been edited by tyflier (edited 26 March 2005).]
At the risk of ticking off all of you that convinced yourself that spending $600, $700, $800 and up on a glass (oops! I mean graphite) rod, why not save for a bit longer and buy a bamboo? The only time that I don’t fish the boo is when I know that I’ll be out until after dark or I’m in real Rambo water. I’m sorry but these graphite rod-makers charging what they charge are the ones catching the big fish. RR
Going to disagree with old bill, heaven’s forbid, there are a lot of rods being built today with ‘heavier’ butt sections. The new Winston Boron is intentionally made with a heavier butt section. Lamiglass makes several fly rods which are ‘qualified’ by them as “lifters”…for playing and landing big fish.
With the lighter rods, it isn’t the butt section which breaks - it’s the tip. Which by the way, overlining tends to increase.
Your milage may vary.
LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
LF
Yup, They’re lifters alright. I can remember years ago the ad by Fisher with a guy lifting a huge weight 25 or 40 lb? off the floor with one of their SW flyrods. The butt section was not what today would be called stiff though. It curved in a smooth arc with a gradual change in radius of curvature. Todays rods IMHO have the stiff butt sections in order that they not break there.
More material has been put there for that purpose and thats why they break somewhere else.
They’re lifters…OK, but “lifting” is illegal in this part of the country! LOL
Thanks for your reply…But ya havn’t convinced me of anything. But Then I don’t fish weighted lines…the sink tip is as far as I’ll go.
Ol’ Bill
Rodmakers spent thousands of hours and dollars in R&D to develop flyrods. When they put a line weight on a rod, that is the line that rod was built to cast. I only cast the line that the rod was designed to cast. If you need to overline a rod to get it to load properly the problem is you casting not the weight of the line.
Secondly, I had to say something about this statement. “The bigger Diameter Lines I feel over Rods the Bamboo Rod.” Let me let you in on a little secret. The diameter of the line has NOTHING to do with overling a rod. It’s the WEIGHT of the line that will over line a rod. Diameter has nothing to do with it