ducksterman--here is your furled leader break test results

ducksterman,

I told you that I would report my findings as soon as I was able to get together here with my friend who has the meter to use to test line breakage points.

I made up 4 furled leaders out of 4 different materials and took them over to his house tonight after work and here are the results which turned out very interesting:

Coats & Clark 100% Nylon Quilting Thread in .005 diameter broke at 5 pounds

Berkley Vanish fluororcarbon in 2 pound test .006 diameter broke at 10 pounds

Berkley Vanish Transition fluorocarbon in 4 pound test .007 diameter broke at 13 pounds

Ande mono in 4 pound test mono in the pink color but has no diameter listed broke at 20 pounds!!! :shock:

Since flurorcarbon loses it’s ability to become invisible under water when it is furled, maybe we need to make our furled leaders from mono instead. I will be purchasing line in mono and trying more tests. I will keep you posted on the results.

All the furled leaders broke at the shorb knot on the tippet end. Keep in mine the pressure we applied was direct straight pull and under fishing conditions with line stretch and rod flex, we will be talking an all new ballgame and I would not know how to test the breaking strength under those conditons.

"Since flurorcarbon loses it’s ability to become invisible under water when it is furled, maybe we need to make our furled leaders from mono instead. I will be purchasing line in mono and trying more tests. I will keep you posted on the results.
"

I didn’t know that but I can see why…How do you know that?..but would the mono be any better???..

I think the pound breakage figures are valuable…very helpfull…thanks

ducksterman,

Fluorocarbon becomes invisible under water due to the way it refracts light and once it is twisted and furled it loses that refractoring quality and is no longer invisible. I think everyone uses it because it sinks faster than mono and will get your flies down quicker and deeper. Mono sinks but not as quickly as fluorocarbon.

I think mono will work as well as fluorocarbon but the diameter would be much larger and it may be a bit stiffer due to the larger diameter. As as example, Sufix Elite 4 pound test mono is .008 diameter as compared to Berkley Transition Fluorocarbon is .007

I cannot remember where I read it, but, one company that makes furled leaders to sell advertises furled leaders made from clear blue flourescent mono.

I will be experimenting with mono just because it is fun to do and test their breaking strengths. I know my friend, who is a saltwater fisherman, was impressed with 4 pound Ande breaking at 20 pound test. I think he wants me to make him one from 8 pound test so we can see if it breaks at 40 pound test. If it does, he will probably want some made up for him to try in Florida in the saltwater.

Interesting, you guys. Glad you posted.

Kat

Warren, enlighten me. Refractive index of a material is an inherent property of the material, and I don’t see how twisting it would change that. Admittedly, you got more stuff there, but why would it make it change its RI?

DG

I await Warren’s response…but it doesn’t surprise me…it’s twisted so no longer are things straight line and if you’ve done one it almost looks prismatic… I suspect light waves are being reflected in all directions…just a guess on my part…

Seems to me, you’re missing the best material for furled leaders. Uni Thread. 6/0. Would you mind giving that a try please.

Seems to me, you’re missing the best material for furled leaders. Uni Thread. 6/0. Would you mind giving that a try please. [/quote]

Warren has his reasons…to me they make sense :smiley:

“All the furled leaders broke at the shorb knot on the tippet end.”

Thanks for posting your results, Warren.

I’ve been making mine with a double surgeon’s loop at both ends (for reasons unrelated to competence). I wonder if that helps or hurts?

Ok, time to ask did those breaks occur at the end of the loop… or where the tag end married with the standing end???

Duckster and Warren;
I believe a 25 piece controled SPC study is in order now. Room Temp. 50 degrees. Leader exposed to 70 degrees before testing. Testing to be done within 30 seconds, etc, etc, etc. Maybe we could get a $100,000.00 Grant to do this?

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I assisted at a fly casting clinic at the local college tonight and am just now getting home.

As far as fluorocarbon no longer being invisible once it has been furled:

Fluorocarbon is a chemical that has nearly the same light refraction rate as water.

Water refraction = 1.32
Fluorocarbon refraction = 1.42
Mono refraction = 1.53-1.62

When you make a furled leader you are twisting, very tight, 10 strands of fluorocarbon at the butt secion, 8 strands at the mid section and 6 strands at the tippet end. Once you have twisted this to shrink it about 10% of the original length, you then let the whole thing furl together. My opinion is that one strand of fluorocarbon has refraction properties very close to water, but, once that many strands are twisted and furled together, it will lose it’s refraction properties much like ducksterman stated. It is no longer a straight single strand, but, many strands twisted. Trust me, I could be wrong. All I know is that another gentleman that I know who makes furled leaders and is an engineer, told me that once twisted and furled, it will lose the refraction properties.

Fly Goddess

6/0 is probably the best if you are a dry fly fisherman and need the furled leader to float, but, the Coats & Clark 100% Nylon Quilting Thread will work the same as 6/0 but it will not absorb water nor retain water that might lead to mildew if put away wet. Another friend of mine, that is a guide and fly shop owner use to use the 6/0 furled leader all the time, but, since trying the .005 Coats & Clark furled leader, he has switched to using the Coats & Clark all the time. For my style of fishing I prefer the either fluorocarbon or mono furled leader because I am a nymph/wet fly/streamer fisherman and I want my flies to sink. The 100% Nylon has pretty close to the same density as water and will try to float on it’s own, mono will sink and fluorocarbon sinks faster than mono. I will make a furled leader out of 6/0 and break test it and let you know how that came out because I also want to know what 6/0 tests at. I will get back to you.

Old Bald Guy

Since you create your end loops with a double surgeons knot, I would say that your furled leaders would test a lot stronger because you are eliminating the weakest link. Just curious though, doesn’t the surgeons knot make for a bulky knot at each end? If my time will permit me, I may create a furled leader and use a Perfection loop in each end (only because I much prefer the Perfection knot to the Surgeons knot)and break test it for you and will let you know.

Ducksterman

That is hard to explain. They each broke at the loop on the tippet end of each furled leader. Only one broke on the leader side of the Shorb knot which allowed the leader to unfurl. All the others broke on the tippet loop side of the shorb knot and the leader stayed together.

One important point everyone needs to keep in mind is that we broke them with one steady hard straight line pull until something had to give. Once a furled leader is on your fly line on your fly rod, it would almost be impossible to break one unless you pointed the rod at the fish/snag and backed up with a steady straight pull until something gives. Your fly line stretch and rod flex will absorb a lot of the stress and keep even your tippet from breaking. Much the same with breaking fly line. If you tied the fly line around a tree and attempted to break it with pulling back on your rod, I think all you would accomplish is breaking your rod, but, it you pointed the rod at the tree and started backing up, you could break the fly line. A lot of people do not realize how powerful a fly rod flex is and how fast a fly rod can wear down a fighting fish.

Well, I hope I have been able to answer most of your questions to your satisfaction and remember I will be posting my break test results with furled leaders made from 6/0 tying thread, mono line and furled leaders with a perfection knot at each end for creating the end loops.

“Tune in later for the rest of the story” :wink:

First off, I have never heard of POLYESTER mildewing. I keep hearing people say that but it ain’t gonna happen.
I have no problem using UNI on nymphs. Put a little XINK on it and it works just fine
You worried about breakage, add one strand of Kevlar to the mix.
I have made the Nylon (Coats & Clark .005) and I find it more brittle.
I have to admit, I have not experiensed any of this stuff that you guys are talking about, specially the break at the Shorb. Never had anyone get back to me at this happening either.

Just a little aside…

Re: the little knot that is created when we tie off each end of the material…dowel #1 &5…

It’s got to go somewhere so I’ve taken to tying a big[long] loop so those knots are more into the butt section rather than part of the shorb loop…that gives two extra strands in the shorb…of course it probably doesn’t matter at all since that’s the thicker end anyway :roll:

Me too :lol:

Folks,

I do not intend to enter any debate over any of this. Whether I am incorrect or not will not help me pay any of my monthly bills, so, I will just do my testing and report what the outcome of the testing was for me. I would find it hard to believe that if no one else does the break testing, how they would know if in fact they have a problem or not, oh, well, I really do not care. I am doing the testing for my own knowledge so that I will know what happens to my furled leaders because it is fun to do and learn and help me to maybe make a better furled leader for my own use. I have furled kevlar and will not use a furled leader made from kevlar or one that has kevlar in it because kevlar has no stretch and no stretch means no tippet protection.

I am not doing this testing to try and get anyone else to change anything or the way they are doing things. To each their own. I love to experiment with things and I am one of those type of people that just because someone claims something is something and it will or will not do someting, I will have to find out for myself because I have been lied to a couple times in my life. :slight_smile:

I am doing these tests because I want to know and nothing more.

Warren that is cool you want to test for yourself. I admit you have me thinking about it also. So, I took out one of my 14,12,10,8,6 Uni thread leaders. Attached 8lb, 10lb, 12lb, flouro to the end with a perfection loop and loop to loop with the shorb in my Uni 6. I tied it to a battery figuring around 60 lbs. Pulled and snap on all three. The tippet, the shorb loop still looks great. What am I doing wrong?
Also, I agree kevlar does not give, but isn’t that what the rod tip is suppose to do, or at least the tippet.

I am confused on what you have and did. First thing is that I make my furled leaders as a 3 step not 5 like you which means we are now trying to campare apples to oranges.

You state you attached 8lb, 10lb,12lb fluorocarbon to the end. Are you saying you attached a 3 step fluorocarbon tappered leader to a 6/0 tappered furled leader?? Sorry, but, I am just comfused here.

Then you say you attached that to a 60lb battery and snap on all three. All Three what? You state the tippet and shorb loop still looks great. I just do not understand what snapped and it sounds like you have a hand tied leader made from fluorocarbon attached to a furled 6/0 thread leader…

Forgive me, but, I am not the sharpest tool in the toolshed and I am confused as to what you have set up.

Sorry

Sorry, it made sense to me :lol:
I took one of my furled leaders, granted you are talking the Kathy Scott 3 stage, but the end results on both are the same (6 strands of Uni 6/0)
I then took three different strength of Flouro. Strate flouro, no taper, just a couple of feet from each weight trying the test three different times
On each separate weight of tippet (plus I am holding the furled rolled in my hand with the last 12" showing which is the 6 strands)with a perfection loop, then I tied on the battery and tried to lift.
Onec with 8lb, Once with 10lb, once with 12lb. I knew it was going to break, I just wanted to see where. It didn’t ever break at the knot, it broke about an inch away, but the shob loop still looks as good as new.

FG…was it the furled leader or the plain fluoro tippet that broke?