I have a couple of expensive skins that the feathers twist horribly when I wrap them. Nothing I do helps. One is my “high grade” grizzly the other a nicely colored furnace hackle. They look like great feathers, long, good number and size of barbs. Both skins, I thought, would have a lifetime of feathers in them. I don’t want to mention the brand, but they are from one of the very popular names in hackle.
The flies I tie with them look like a “ball” of hackle rather then a nice neat “collar”. I have caught fish with them, but they look a sketchy at best. I talked to the fly shop where I bought one of them, and got a lecture on how to wrap hackle. No offer to look at said skin or offer to return or exchange.
Question;
Should I just discard these two skins (my estimate replacement cost about $250+) and buy new ones?
First thing I’d check is to make sure you have a smooth thread base for wrapping the hackle; uneven or bumpy will make it difficult to get a neat wrap. Do you have any pics of flies you’ve tied with the hackle? Any pics of an individual hackle to see if it’s excessively cupped? I’ve got a few capes with cupped hackle (I picked them up at bargain prices, maybe $10 each) that aren’t the easiest to work with, but, with a little coaxing, will produce acceptable flies.
The grizzly feathers twist horribly no matter the base, be it bare hook, dubbing or parachute post. I have tried everything. Hackle pliers, stripping one side, “pre bending”,twisting the opposite direction while wrapping, pre soaking, none of the feathers wrap worth a s***. (Sorry)
The furnace hackle is better, some of the smaller feathers are better, but still a pain.
My other necks and packaged feathers are fine. Problem is the grizzly and furnace are the two colors I use most.
Other then actually tying a fly with a feather from the neck, how does one make sure , before you buy it, that the feathers are not going to twist like this?
Other than actually test tying a feather you have three alternatives:
1)This is not a sure fire way but it may give some indication - Hold a feather out from the skin and form a circle. See if the stem flips. If it does, don’t buy.
2)Make sure the hackle is from a reputable and established breeder.
3)Get a guarantee. A reputable breeder will back up his skins.
I’m hesitant about recommending a breeder but I will because I’ve dealt with him for a long time, he has an excellent flock, and he guarantee his feathers - Charlie Collins, Pine City, NY
I’ve dealt with Denny, also an excellent flock, here on FAOL for a long time and I’m sure he guarantees his too.
Both great to deal with.
Oh, as far as what you already have: 1)try to return to the seller/breeder; 2)toss it because it doesn’t get any better; 3)live with it; and 4)sell it on ebay.
You might try steaming the feathers in small batches or individually…this will usually soften up the stems. Do you know about “folding the hackle” once it is tyed in? On Catskill style flies, try tying one feather in front of the wings, and one in back. Wrap the front feather backwards with your bobbien behind the wings, then tye off. Wrap the back feather fowards using a rocking motion as you take turns of hackle. gently rock the thread/bobbin as you wind the thread fowward over and between the wraps of hackle. By doing this, you reinforce the hackle (more durable fly) and can manipulate wayward barbs as you go.
If I was paying $125/cape for hackle I would expect them to wrap correctly. I’d try to get either the retailer or producer to make it right. That’s way too much money to have to deal with twisted stems. At that price they should wrap themselves.
Before you ‘toss’ them, wash the whole neck in warm soapy water. Dish detergent will do fine. Rinse really well and then blow dry it. I’ve dyed hackles, on the skin and off and the warm, actually, hot (95C) water straightens them out. Years ago, I bought some black dry fly hackle that had been wound up and put into one of those 1x2x3" plastic cases. The stuff was so twisted I nearly tossed it but after a wash and dry it was fine. Steaming is a good alternative, as AA suggested, but I find washing and drying easier.
Another thing to pay attention to, as you may already well know, is the taper of the stem. Once the fluff (philo plumes) is removed from the base of the feather, on say a sz 12, you may still have a thicker portion of stem into the “usable” barbs of the feather shaft. You will most likey have to strip off more barbs, and get into the straight, non-tapered portion of the stem to help eliminate twist. Once tied in, fold the hackle by pulling it in a direction about 90* away from the orientation from which you wish to have your hackle when you begin your first turn on the fly. Sometimes, it wil take some additional proding and poking to get the feather where it will spring back to where you want it. If you get the first wrap the way you like it, the rest of the remaining wraps should follow along. Stroking out the barbs as you wrap turns, and rocking the feather should help anchor it well to the fly body and help relieve some of the tendency of the hackle to twist. Hope this helps,
I have been trying your suggestions over the last couple of days. The grizzly hackle is hopeless. The steaming of the feathers is the only thing that worked to some extent. But what an incredible pain. I used the steam feature on an iron to steam some of the feathers. That is a slow process as it takes a few minutes of hitting the steam button on the iron then letting the iron heat back up, then repeat. The feathers only twisted on the “thick” end. But if I let the feathers dry out for more then a couple of minutes, all bets off, they twisted as much as ever.
I have decided to try the “washing” technique before throwing this neck into the scrap pile. The hackle tips are still good for Adams wings.
The furnace hackle is better, the smaller feathers work ok the, longer feathers vary from un useable to just a pain
Have you tried contacting the breeder directly? Again at $125/ you should not have to steam it, wash it, wrap it at odd angles or over other material to get it to work. It sounds like the retailer basically told you to go away. If the breeder does the same, maybe it’s time to name names.
No names, that was not the point of this thread. I do have other hackle from the same brand and it is GREAT, also, the dealer I bought them from is wonderful and I have had very good experiences with.
For clarity, the $250 cost I implied was not what I paid, rather my estimate of what top grade replacement hackle would cost. Mabel I over estimated the cost at today’s prices. The point I was trying to make was that I paid good money for something that is frustrating me to no end.
I would try flattening the tying end of the stem. you place a round dubbing needle perpendicular to the stem and draw the stem. just be sure the hackle is oriented in the same direction as your hackle wrapping
What if you flatten the stem on a flat surface? That should make the stem flexable enough to wrap and not twist. Some feathers used in tying Tenkara flies are like your feathers and the stems have to be crushed in order to get them to wrap properly. Try one and see if it helps
Allow me to go back to my earlier comment. To my knowledge, and I welcome information as well as correction from a reliable and knowledgeable source, I don’t know the physical property(ies) that cause a hackle to ‘twist’ when wound but I believe it has to do with genetics. A well respected breeder told me that he almost lost his flock because of twisting hackles but he was able to identify and destroy the breeder rooster and hen before too much genetic damage was done. He basically told me that there’s not much you can do to correct the affected hackle.
Good luck. You can get some use out of those (I’m guessing) necks but probably not good dry fly hackle. Still suggest contacting the seller or breeder.
I’ll concur with Allen. I also have had several conversations with a well known breeder and he told me the same. He checks his birds throughout the growing and if he sees one that starts to twist it heads to the pot.
I don’t have any suggestion on how to straighten the hackle but if you use those hackles to tie thorax duns where you crisscross the hackle under the shank I think you will find them useful.