Danville's 70 Denier Flymaster 6/0 Waxed

Fishing Furling
21

Thanks for explaining the use of 4wt on a 5wt. Each time you posted you stated that is how you fished the 5wt and it got the best of me and I just had to know the reason for it. I have used fast rods for several years and like them, but, lately, I have started to overline my fast rods by one weight. For some reason I cannot “feel” the rod loading when rigged with the recommended line and I get the feeling I am “standing in the river waving a big stick” and do not know what my fly line is doing during the casting stroke and when I overline the rod one weight, I can “feel” the line as I pull it off the water and “feel” the line as I come forward with the cast. I feel I have more control of my cast by doing this. I will admit that there are a few times my casting is not what I wanted and that was because I was making the cast too quickly and all I needed to do was slow down the stroke and everything would work out great. It is difficult to explain, but, when I overline the rod by one weight, the line, the fly rod and my arm feel like they are working together and more smoothly. I guess I just need to feel the rod do it’s thing throughout the entire casting stroke and my casting is more controlled and less effort, at least for me.

Thanks

22

John,
You mentioned that your furls were not as tight as before…could that make them more subject to abrasion?

23

Duck -

I never would have thought of that - but I think you are on to something. I’ll be making another one today to replace the one that failed yesterday and will twist the whatever out of it. :wink:

Thanks much.

John

24

Frank -

Thanks for the suggestion. I have thought about that as a possibility, and it may in fact be the cause of the failures I’ve had. I guess I tended to minimize or discount that as a likely cause due to the nature and location of the fraying, which I should have described in more detail. It is typically at a point on the leader outside of the tip ring and slightly removed from the actual surface of the ring. Which is why it first struck me as a problem with the quality of thread I have been getting or the new ( to me ) technique I have been using.

Since the leader material moves very little within the tip ring during the twisting stage, and probably not at all during the furling stage, it seems any damage caused by a rough surface would be to the part of the leader inside or on an edge of the ring, not outside of it. Same question if the damage is occurring during actual use because of a rough surface on the ring - it seems like the failure would be at a contact point of the leader material and the surface of the ring ??

BUT before I start furling a fresh leader this morning, I will definitely follow your suggestion.

Maybe between using a fresh spool of thread, changing the weight of the tension devise, slowing down the twisting rpm, twisting the material tighter before furling, all on a smoother ring, the failures will be eliminated. Of course, then I still won’t know what the problem was. But then, I won’t really care. :shock:

Thanks for the ideas. If one factor jumps out as the culprit, I’ll post it here.

John

25

… in things relating to fly angling, they are not complete until you go fishing to test the results.

Here’s the deal -

I changed out to a new spool of thread.

I swabbed over the tip ring I was going to use for several minutes with a ball of cotton. No cotton fibers stuck to any part of the ring, so I think that eliminates roughness of the ring as a possibility.

I reduced the weight used for tension by about a third.

I slowed the twisting time way down. Like I almost fell asleep at the controls of the Ryobi.

I upped the number of twists from 1350 to 1750, and the number of furling twists from 750 to 900.

The reduction before furling went from about 14% to about 19%.

The finished leader looks really good.

Now I have to go test the results.

John

P.S. Over the past several months, I’ve been thinking about the possibility of incorporating a piece of mono tippet material ( something like 5X or 6X ) into the last six inches of the leader as a way to reinforce the tip ring connection. That short a section of reinforcement would not effect the overall suppleness of the leader - and suppleness is my highest priority ( way ahead of durability ). Wondering if any of you have done anything like that, and if so, how did you go about it ???

26

… the fishing part of it, that is. Fished my home water for about four hours and had something over thirty fishies in hand, plus some other action in the way of hits that didn’t hook up and long distance releases.

The 140 again proved to be a stellar performer. For the smaller flies I was fishing today, mostly a size 16 Renegade, the 140 is the best furled leader I have fished with, period.

The other part of the experiment was also successful.

The tip ring broke off in the same place, and I mean exactly the same place, while I was standing on the same rock I was standing on a couple days ago, casting to the same pocket …

… and again snagged some foliage on a backcast in tight quarters. No kidding. The mechanics were a bit different this time, but the result was the same. Except this time the thread above the tip ring failed in not much more than four hours compared to about nine hours for the last one.

So … yes, Frank, it is almost certainly the thread. It might be that the thread is just too light duty for this application. But I’m not to sure about that, considering the way the 210 has performed over the years, lasting 20-30-40 similar outings before failing, and the way the 70 has performed when beefed up to a weight comparable to the 140 I used today.

The alternative is that I got a bad batch of thread. But two spools in different colors ?? Doesn’t seem likely.

The approach I used, as described above, provided a valid test, to my way of thinking. By eliminating all the possible causes of failure, I should have ended up with a leader that was durable or failied only because of the quality of the thread itself. So now I’m thinking I need to make more leaders, from the several different spools I have, the way I did the one that failed today and see how they stand up. If all of them fail, it seems to me it will be because the thread is just too light duty for the application. If some fail and some don’t, then it is more likely a specific failure is the result of bad thread, not that it is too light duty.

Anyway, I’m going to have to do a lot of fishing to get this thing sorted out.

John

P.S. Frank - I’m thinking I can intertwine a reinforcing mono with the three tip end strands on either side of the layout before twisting. As you point out, once the twisting starts, it should lock them in place. After they are locked in place they should create a good reinforcment to the thread going through the tip ring.

27

I just about choked laughing when I read your opening comment, Frank.

Appreciate the information. Based on the comparison of 140 and 210, and knowing the performance level of 210 as a practical matter from a long experience with it, there doesn’t seem to be any reason that the 140 would not stand up to the performance demands on the new leader.

I’m going to try one more time with a third spool of thread in a different color. If it fails as quickly as the other two leaders, the practical side of me says to move on, either by reinforcing the tip end or by beefing up the 140 with another couple strands.

I did have another thought, and am very interested in your thinking on it. How about adding some kind of glue ( zap-a-gap comes to mind ) just at and above the tip ring ?? Would that strengthen the material and / or reduce fraying ??

If this 140 leader didn’t perform so well for it’s intended application, I’d be inclined to shelve the thread and take some other approach. But it is worth finding a solution to the “tip ring” failure. To the point that I will go to the other technique of installing a tip ring ( after the furling is complete ), or go back to a Shorb Loop for the tip end, which I really don’t want to do, to see if that works.

John

28

Far be it for me to offer any suggestions but instead of ‘zap-a-gap’ which is nothing more than Thick CA which will dry hard and stiff. I use a lot of CA from Thin, Medium and Thick.

Will that create a new stress point below where the CA ends on the leader and the threads can still fray?

How about something like Flexment or Shoe-Goo so there’s more give and flexing at the tip ring but impedes fraying?

29

Thanks, Ron and Frank.

As it turns out, I have never bought or used zap-a-gap for anything for precisely the reasons you both gave.

As it turns out, I happened to get some thinner yesterday to thin down some flexament for some flies I’m going to tie, so I have a fresh batch to work with. I am hoping it doesn’t come to using it, but that will likely be the next thing I try if the new leader fails like the last two.

I’ve done that “handclasp” thing with tip rings on furled leaders, but I much prefer incorporating a ring during the set up rather than adding it after furling. That would be my next thing to go to if necessary.

Nothing against the Shorb loop - it just is very difficult for me to do on the tip end. The tip ring eliminates that problem ( along with all the other advantages of the incorporated ring ) and makes putting a Shorb loop in the butt end a lot easier, at least for me.

John

30

Frank … I have some bottles that are a couple of years old … If you want I’ll give you a source right there in TX and he always has fresh glue … I pay around $5 for a 2oz bottle.

31

Nope … don’t use that stuff … most of the time it is old when it gets to the hobby stores and who knows how long it sit’s on the shelf before someone buys it.

The CA glues have a shelf-life of about 2 years; make no difference who’s shelf it is on. I buy 1 oz. bottles of “EXTREME POWER” superglue at my local Hobby Lobby for about half of what the same amount of Zap-A-Gap costs, and it is still good after nearly a year, opened, and either on my tying bench, or at my lathe in my eternally hot garage! The label says that it is: " For Industrial Use Only"; for whatever that is worth
[/QUOTE]A container of fresh Zap-A-Gap might last 6 weeks at either location, once opened; IF I am lucky. I much prefer to have something sitting there that I can depend upon to be ready for use when I need it. I have been using the “EXTREME POWER” for over 10 years now, and it has never let me down.[/QUOTE]
I’ve not used that one …

Thanks, again.

You are welcome Frank and I took another look at those pics and am sorting them out … when I get back from Yellowstone I’ll finish the pdf file for you

32

… or at least a good start. Fished the third 140 ( furled exactly the same as the other two ) from a third spool of thread. After six hours of fishing, there was no evidence at all of any fraying at / around the tip ring.

Flexament it will be, if I need to experiment further. And I might just experiment with the threads that failed just to see if the flexament fixes the problems with those threads.

John

P.S. Frank -

It wasn’t the rock. Last cast yesterday from the same rock into the same pocket and everything was fine, except this guy’s attitude.

33

“Flexament it will be, if I need to experiment further. And I might just experiment with the threads that failed just to see if the flexament fixes the problems with those threads.”

and there is pliobond…

34

Frank -

I probably average, conservatively, about 15-20 outings before a leader frays and fails at the tip ring. Using them for all my dry fly fishing, which is about 90-100 days per year, means I would typically go through 5 or 6 leaders per year if fraying / failing were the only reason I needed to replace them. I sometimes ruin a leader somehow and replace it sooner, and I do give some away.

Bottom line, I probably furl and use or give away about ten or twelve leaders per year. At 70’ of thread per leader, that is not much more than 300 yards of thread per year. Your 5470 yard spool would last me around 18 years. Think I will stick with the 100 yard spools and reserve some flexibility for new materials if something comes along that I prefer for some reason.

John

35

The third 140 failed at the tip ring after four outings, about 20 hours of fishing. Guess I’ll be experimenting with some alternatives on how to add the tip ring since I really do like the way the leader performs.

John

36

… I settled on the one that seemed the easiest and most likely to stand up to extended use. I titled the pic below “Yuk!!” knowing that if the technique produces the desired results, I can always improve the appearance on future specimens.

First, note that the last leader I furled with the third spool of 140 failed at the tip ring after about four hours. So, to my way of thinking, it is not a matter of defective thread but the simple fact that three strands of this thread will not take the stresses caused at the tip ring by the dynamics of casting, catching, and snagging stuff in the process.

So the idea was to increase the number of strands going through the tip ring to six - and six furled strands, at that.

After spinning the thread and before starting the power furling, I simply ran a piece of 210 thread through the very end of the loops at the tip post. It stayed in place during the furling process and when that was finished, I tied a double overhand knot in the thread.

After doing the Shorb loop on the butt end, I fed the 210 thread and then the tip end of the furled 140 leader through a tip ring. Pulled the leader through the ring far enough to double it on itself, and then tied the 210 around the standing end of the leader. After that, it was a matter of wrapping the 210 around the leader down to the ring and back to the tie in point, and then tying a knot to secure it in place. Saturated the mess with some flexament to keep everything in place and strengthen ( ?? ) the wrapping and knotting.

At this point, it seems that the only way the tip ring can fail is for the 210 holding the 140 together to somehow separate / fail. If it holds together, the tip ring should be able to break off at least 2X 10# tippet ( just like the leader’s bigger brother made from 210 ) and, theoretically, even heavier duty tippet, and it should prove quite durable.

Now to finish the experiment - by going fishing.

John

37

John … what kind of camera you using? It always seems to catch a smile on the fish showing he’s thankful
for you tossing him back.

Probably made my last trip to Missoula this last weekend for fishing … did ok at the stream I told you about.

38

The camera is an Olympus 850SW - waterproof to 10’, shockproof from 5’, and freezeproof to 14F. I’ve had it for about four and a half years and it continues to serve me well.

John

39

Yuk. It held up for about eighteen hours of fishing over four days - and then the tip ring popped off when the hook snagged something on the backcast and the 4X tippet proved stronger than the tip ring connection. So much for theory. Back to the drawing board.

John

40

That’s because he shows the same photo over and over and over…LOL