I was fishing a long run for wild trout yesterday. I was nymphing upstream and trying to execute pile casts and to get my nymph to land right below my indicator, but everytime I cast I noticed the indicator - I tried three different kinds - made a splash on the water. How do we know if and when this splash might spook trout on smooth or semi-smooth water?
Randy
Sounds like a good reason to carry more than one type of indicator. The high-float, never-sink type (thingamabobbers) for fast water where you don’t worry about spooking fish and yarn indicators for delicate situations. I carry several different sizes of yarn indicators. I make them with white macrame yarn and color some of them to look a little dirty so they won’t look unnatural.
Ted
Thanks Ted. I tried a yarn indicator, the kind with an o-ring. It too made a splash. Maybe I should have used a yarn indicator made up of one thread, without the ring.
Randy
Tough to tell unless you actually see a fish move away from the fish. It would be good to know what indicator(s) you actually used. There are indicators that do not land with a splash. A small tuft of egg yarn for example, about the size of salmon egg will not splash. Also euronymphing “sighter” indicators that are a part of the leader system itself will not splash. They are coiled loops of florescent high vis mono or striped high vis dacron backing. Do a Google for “euro nymphing sighters”.
Secondly, I think you mean at tuck cast and not a pile cast. Virtually the same casting motion but the tuck is done with a nymph and the pile is done with an air resistant dry fly. Both tuck the leader over. The nymph lands downstream of the fly line because it flips over.
The air resistant dry fly prevents the leader from flipping leader and fly under itself. So the butt of the leader turns but the distal leader and tippet cannot. The tippet and leader “pile” on the surface.
The “pile” cast is often confused with the “puddle” cast and you will find most references to the pile showing a puddle cast. They are not the same.
The reason I go into these two casts is that they are often done incorrectly. It is obvious that for the leader to flip over in a tuck, the must be enough vertical space under the cast for that leader and nymph to tuck under itself. If you don’t cast so that space is there, or do not create that space with a up and forward mend, the cast will crash into the water before the fly can tuck under.
The other problem is the indicator. If it is bushy, it will slow down the cast and the cast will not tuck all the way.
If you’re upstream nymphing, you really don’t need to use in indicator at all. I think most people rely on them way too much. I do pull one out on occasion but only when I need a very specific kind of drift to get the fly where I want it. I think that they can easily ‘dummy down’ your nymphing skills if you begin to rely on them too much…and trust me…that’s too easy to do. I don’t think it’s the splash the indicator makes, but rather the shadow or silhouette that may spook fish. Your weighted flies (shot, what ever) make a splash too…so if you blame the indicator, you have to blame the fly as well. That’s why I use white, clear or mossy olive when I use them. But it can also be one more thing. Ineffective mending. I see that a lot. (moving the indicator when you mend). That does spook fish.
Here’s the deal. Your fly line / leader is your indicator. I put floatent on about 6-9 feet of my fly line and onto about 6-7 ft of leader…leaving at least a couple of feet without it. Cast upstream, straighten the line right after it hits the water and watch it. You want to be bringing the line back to you at the same speed as the bubbles and flotsam on the surface. You can strip it back or just lift your fly rod. The leader will sink at a steady rate…but if you see ANY deviation in the leader sink rate (seen in the surface film) or your fly line, like a stop, jump, twitch, sudden dip or turn… LIFT. It takes some practice and yeah you’ll hang up on the bottom a little more often, but it’s more effective than using a bobber…oops, I mean indicator. Take a lesson from Joe Humphreys. Probably one of the best nymph fly anglers on the planet. You can get a lot out of his videos. This one in particular:
http://www.appoutdoors.com/joe_humphreys_a_casting_approach_to_nymphing_tactics_dvd_nymphtactics_c0_p43211.htm
for the full list:
http://www.joehumphreysflyfishing.com/booksanddvds.htm
The Tuck Cast AKA Drop Cast, Fly First cast …it’s easy to do but you need to remember to wait long enough on the back cast. (Any time you are fishing with weighted flies, shot or line It MUST load the rod = FEEL the tug ) Then when you bring your rod forward, instead of making the stop at say 2 O Clock …stop it at 1 or even 12 o- clock, and with your line hand, give it a small tug at the stop. This snaps the line back making the fly hit the water first. Joe H gives an exellant lesson on casting this in his Nymphing video.
Here’s one I found on YouTube that’s ok.
The PILE Cast is very similar in implementation at the start but it’s for putting a lot of loose wiggles into the fly line to help give you a natural drift in difficult water (currents).
If trout spooked at every thing which made a little splash on the water surface, they’d all die of starvation, neurosis, or panic attacks. Bugs, twigs, berries, bird poop, and a million other things fall in the water .
If you caught any fish, then I guess the answer is “No” the splash didn’t spook that fish. If you didn’t catch anything, the the answer is “Perhaps” it spooked some fish, or any of the other 74 billion (roughly) variables in fly fishing didn’t line up correctly.
One of the best things I’ve seen recently was on a famous trout stream here in Pennsylvania during a good mayfly hatch. Everyone KNOWS the trout are selective and skittish. The run had quite a few “Mr. Orvis” types debating amongst themselves the merits of 6x vs 7x tippets, slack line casts for drag free drifts, color shade nuances among flies they should use, blah blah blah… A kid of about 12 walked down and splatted out a painted cork Betts-type popper, about a #6, gave it a few chugs and it was HAMMERED by an 18" brown. I laughed like hell, and it made some of the Holier-Than-Thou types so mad they actually left the stream. Of course that was something of an anomaly- it might not happen again for a long long time. The point is, though, they’re just fish… even if they do spook, they’ll forget about it pretty soon.
I had much the same problem on a technical spring creek I discovered a few years back. I turned to Schollmeyer’s Parasol Emerger as my indicator on that water and haven’t looked back since. The method has been very successful and even spawned my first ever magazine article in Flyfishing & Tying Journal back in Nov 2010 titled Spring Creek Strategies.
Anyway, problem solved for me when it comes to landing a noisy indicator on the surface and spooking already spooky fish in spring creek like settings where the water is slow and clear.
Here is the link to my Fly of The Week entry last November here on FAOL: http://www.flyanglersonline.com/fotw/2010/fotw20101108.php
Hope this helps, just another option among many.
Kelly.
I forget to mention several other indicators that won’t splash. One is the fly line coating that has had the core taken out. You thread it onto the leader.
Second is a bit of strike putty. This is one of my favorites. Just put a slight amount on the leader. It is not to float the fly but to give you a concentration point. Even if it goes under water, you can see it move with a take. So it really is a strike indicator rather than a float.
Whether a fish spooks depends a lot on the water depth and where the fish is holding in that water column. If the fish is shallow enough that it fears overhead predation, I think you can spook it with a splash. If it feels safe, it may notice the indicator splash but it won’t spook. I use 3 feet or mid thigh level as my guide. I do think shallow fish spook even if nothing lands on the water. A moving overhead shadow is the spooky fish’s early warning system. I personally don’t think it is quite as simple as “lots of stuff drop on the water so fish are unlikely to spook.”
I remember one evening stalking a pod of rising fish on the S. Platte. They were feeding in a shallow water. I crept on my hands and knees and I raised the rod to cast. They all shot out of there. I did not wave the rod to even cast. All it took was for that rod to appear in the window. So first think of whether the fish’s location would suggest that it is likely to be spooked.
Say we have the other situation, where the fish is deep enough that it feels pretty safe from overhead predation. In this situation, I still think the strike indicator and/or fly can spook the fish depending on where the indicator/fly lands and how hard it lands. Put that tuck cast nymph right on top of the fish and you are likely to get a reaction strike or the fish will scoot out of the way of the weighted nymph and indicator. Remember that the tuck cast is not an ordinary cast that drop the nymph upstream. It is a cast that drives the nymph under water so it will cause a bigger splash.
Here is your original post:
The actual cast used has an effect in this case. It is more likely to spook fish because of that is the nature of the tuck cast. The tuck cast is designed for faster water where the velocity differential between the surface and the bottom is greater because of a higher gradient. In this faster water, the splash is less likely to be noticed. More ambient noise and the window is broken by the surface riffles. The fish also less time to decide whether to eat the fly.
That is why you want the leader and line to land upstream of the fish. You want the fly driven into the water to sink fast and get to depth while the upstream line and indicator are catching up to the fly.
In slow smooth and semi-smooth water, there is less advantage to the tuck cast. Make a standard up and across cast with a accompanying upstream reach mend or upstream curve and then throw more upstream mends on top of that drift. I think that would be my approach to that type of water.
Thanks so much, folks. I couldn’t use a tuck cast because I was on a small stream and had to use roll casts. (Also, I find when making short roll casts I get tangles.) The water was up to my knees or a little higher. Yes, a splash can induce reaction strikes. I find that very common when fishing streamers. Because I was putting a lot of slack line onto the water, I don’t see how I could have not used an indicator. Also, having to constantly retrieve line - this was a long run I was working up - can very tiring. Instead, I made a roll cast, retrieved a little bit of line, then lifted the rod tip into roll casting position. I didn’t think of it, but I probably could have used a caddis as an indicator. I’ll check out the euro indicators.
Randy ,
I would try a Dry fly and a Dropper setup. This works great on small streams where I just hang a Beadhead Nymph about a foot below the Dry Fly. If the stream is deeper then set the Beadhead Nymph further from the Dry Fly. See Charlie Meck’s articles on his web site for more information - http://charlesmeck.com/ or Midcurrent “Seeing Double” article - http://midcurrent.com/knots/seeing-double/
Also, here is a good article by Kirk Deeter - “Going Deep In The Name Of Trout Research”
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/kentucky/2007/01/going-deep-name-trout-research
Kirk used scuba gear to learn some things about trout behavior associated with Fly Fishing.
See the discussion in “Lesson 7: All Strike Indicators Are Not Alike” about yarn indicators.
Vinny
I apologize for the long post but when discussing casts we need to be sure we use the same terms. Otherwise, there is confusion. I get really frustrated when I see what are the incorrect terms used to name casts. I believe casting terms are loosely used and often times incorrectly.
So here is my version of what is correct and what is not.
Mato,
I don’t think that is a pile cast. Another case of the internet spreading the wrong information. I think that is what one would call the bounce cast, where the forward cast is overpowered or shocked with a haul at the stop. This overpowered cast “bounces” the fly, leader, and line back and it falls in “S” curves. It is like the Wriggle or Wiggle cast. See this description or the Wriggle and the bounce from Sexyloops:
http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/twriggle.shtml
Here is a video that shows it.
http://video.answers.com/advanced-fly-casting-techniques-the-slack-line-cast-276850312
The puddle cast is also called the pile cast which confuses it with what I consider the pile cast. First of all, the puddle “cast” is not really a cast. It is a downward mend that occurs after the cast. So the more proper term is the puddle mend and pile mend to distinguish it from the tuck cast and pile cast which are real casts.
As we know, the end of a cast is defined by the rod stop. What happen afterwards by moving the rod or the rod tip is a mend and not the cast. A reach mend is a reach to the side after the rod stop. A puddle mend is mend down after the stop.
It is a low back cast combined with a high forward underpowered cast with an open loop. After the stop, you immediately lower the rod tip (a downward mend), and the underpowered cast collapses and the leader and line puddles on the water over the target.
The descriptions below from the internet do not mention the underpowered nature of the cast, but the pile will contain more slack with an underpowered open loop. You can also shoot line to kill the cast at the stop and drop. It is a cast that barely extends and falls back on itself. The sites call it the puddle or pile cast but as I’ll show later it should be called just the puddle with the term “pile” cast reserved for a version of the tuck with a dry fly. Puddle cast:
http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/tpile.shtml
http://www.virtualflycasting.com/cast%207c.htm
http://www.flyfishingyellowstonenationalpark.com/ai455.html
I described the tuck and pile casts in a previous post. These are true casts that are created before the stop. You can combine them with mends after the stop as I noted in my original description of an up and forward mend after the stop. The text and photos below are from Jason Borger’s book The Nature of Fly Casting.
Text below is from pp 190 and verifies what I stated before about the two casts.
Here is the illustration of the two casts. The Tuck is the more solid line than flips completely over. The Pile shows the trailing distal leader and tippet with the trailing air resistant dry fly.
When one can perform both casts, there is an advantage to the pile cast over the puddle mend. Because the puddle mend is a high trajectory and depends on gravity to puddle the line/leader it is less accurate than the pile. Any wind or gust can make the puddle useless.
Secondly, I use this cast when casting over a section of fast water to a slot of feeding fish behind or ahead of a rock. On the puddle, the line closest to you falls to the water first and this means the line is being dragged downstream before the fly lands. You get a shorter and less accurate drift with the puddle.
On the pile cast, the leader lands first and before the line so you get the fly on the water before the line hits the water and pulls on the leader.
So use the pile cast when you can.
Why would you not always use the pile? The problem is distance. I can make a puddle at a distance that is too far for me to do a pile with my level of skill.
Here is a photo of place where the pile or puddle are the only two casts that will work. The fish are feeding in seam “A” and you need to cast from the bank at “B” across that fast water.
Here is another place here the fish feed in the slot B or on the other side of the A . The fish also feed in front of the rock and here the pile provides better accuracy.
Wow, Silvercreek, should I really take all this to heart?
I think Mato knows what the hell she’s talking about.
Geez!
bobbyg,
I don’t believe I have disrespected anyone but since you seem to be upset, I have taken my posts down.
Peace
I’m with Mato in skipping the floating indicator.
You can use a colored leader butt (I tie my own with Amnesia) and / or some of those sleeve indicators that were recently discussed in another thread (http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?42724-homemade-strike-indicators). These will make the leader butt more visible. The angle and position of the leader butt will also give you a sense of the fly depth and drift.
I don’t think you necessarily have to use a tuck cast or any other special cast and I regularly use it with roll casts. However, eliminating the bulky indicator makes casting easier. Just make sure you manage your line by either stripping in line and / or lifting your rod. Line management is good practice anyway and is important for hook setting. Not using a floating indicator forces you to be more conscientious about line management.
John, the Amnesia looks interesting. Any idea how visible the light green is on a small stream? Also, for 5x, 6x tippets should I start out with a 15lb leader butt?
Thanks,
Randy
easily ‘dummy down’ your nymphing skills
I hear Ian in the background somwewhere.
Silver Creek, you certainly did NOT need to remove your posts - they were not offensive to anyone (including me and I count S) You had provided some very good information.
Hugs,
LF
Silver Creek,
You are correct, sir. I grabbed the wrong example. Here is another article;
http://www.floyddeanflycasting.com/wisdom/articles/wiggle_pile.html
Either way, it’s simply a way to put more loose on the water to help to accomplish a drag free drift.
You all should know, I am not a certified casting instructor, nor have I ever really worried about what casts are called. …so I can get it wrong. Casting for me has always been simply to deliver the fly in a manner that the fish will take it (right place, right time, write action) …then figuring out the problem, then how to accomplish that. Other than the basic cast and the roll cast …I came to all other casts on my own with the time spent problem solving on the on the water, rather than books and videos. Time on the water is the only real teacher / class room, when it come to fly fishing. So, get some lessons for the basic casts to avoid learning some bad habits then get out there and fish.
Sorry I missed seeing your other posts, SC.
Now I’m off to Grayling to do some fishing for a couple more weeks.
For the small driftless area spring creeks here in SE MN, I use the green Amnesia in 25#, 20# and 15# for my nymph leader butts. For a 4 or 5 wt line I use 25#, 20# and 15# to tie a tapered 5’ butt section. For smaller lines, I use 20# and 15# to tie a 4’ butt section. In either case, I add 2 of the orange sleeve indicators to the butt section.
I think the specifics of the leader design really depend on your casting style and preferences, so use the Amnesia sizes and butt design that works for you.
Great stuff. Thanks so much folks.
Randy