Fella’s this is not a pass it on rather a request for information, I just purchased a 3wt. rod to replace my 6wt for trout and ran into a issue that I have never ran into before! I am using a 7X leader with a #12 wooly bugger and the leader ended up twisting up like something I have never seen before. I normally use a 5X leader with the 6wt. and have never ran into this problem before. Fella’s can you give me some advice?
Sorry I’ve not been on here in a very long time. Later,
Kirk
7x is real small for a #12 bugger. 5x bare minimum, 4x is much better, in some cases 3x.
Two things I’d suggest: either drop to a #14 bugger, or go up to 5X…or both. 
That’s kinda what I was thinking that my leader was too small for the fly, BUT ya know that little voice I just call him not sure 
Thanks fella’s I appreciate the help. Later,
Kirk
ksmirk, bookmark this tippet to fly size chart
http://hipwader.com/2003/tippet-to-fly-size-chart
or memorize the following
“Fly Size divided by 4 plus 1 equals the X number tippet you should use”
you should have been using 3x tippet
12 / 4 + 1 = 4X 
You can usually fudge that number one spot in either direction as well, to suit conditions, 2 spots and things will get somewhat more difficult, 3 spots and youre asking for issues.
i was never good with that higher math, quantum mechanics and string theory!! :D:D
i was think this
As a general rule, tippet size is determined by dividing the fly size by four to get the tippet sit which is expressed in decreasing sizes as 0X, 1X, 2X, 3X, 4X, 5X, 6X, 7X and 8X. This is called the rule of 4.
In other words, for a size 12 fly you would use a 3X tippet. For clear and smooth water conditions, it’s best to go one size smaller in tippet diameter, therefore the most appropriate tippet for a size #12 fly would actually be 4X. You should carry tippet material in sizes 3X, 4X, SX and 6X.
Good advice, guys! I couldn’t have said it better myself. 8T
I seen both the rule of 3 and the rule of 4 published.
Having said that, I prefer the rule of 3 rather than 4. Divide the hook size by 3 to get tippet size. It is close to the your rule of dividing by 4 and adding 1, but I think it is simpler simpler with no adding.
Hook size ----- 8 -10 -12 - 14 - 16 - 18 - 20
Rule of 3 ----- 3 - 3 – 4 — 5 – 5 – 6 – 6/7
Rule of 4+1 – 3 - 3 – 4 — 5 – 5 – 6 – 6
I believe the old rule of 4, which gives a larger tippet size, goes back to the days when tippets were not as strong as current modern tippets. Now I thiink the rule of 3 is really the bettter of the two rules.
As to the leader twisting with casting a wooly bugger, I wonder whether Ksmirk is using the Belgian or oval casting method to avoid hitting his rod tip with the bugger. The Belgian wind cast will put a twist into the line for each forward cast. Normally a wooly bugger is a fly that is tied “in the round” with no asymmetric wings to spin the fly during a cast. Nor should it spin on retrieve. If it does, it is a poorly tied fly.
Silver Creek, dude I’m by no means an 8th level casting instructor maybe an 8th level student that fudged my grades the twisting of the leader was while fishing the wooly bugger. Thanks so much for the leader rules! looks like I’ll be purchasing some more leader and tippet. Again thanks fella’s! Later,
Kirk
My solution is to false cast as little as possible and just lob it back into the water with one motion
Another solution is to use only a short section say 2 ft of leader rather than a tapered leader and tippet. This will resist twisting. But to use a short section of leader, you need to fish streamers and wooly buggers with sinking or sink tip line rather than floating line. You will catch more fish using streamers with sinking line.
Here’s another solution. Don’t use a floating line with a tapered leader. Instead connect a straight short section, say 2 feet of fluorocarbon 1 X size larger than you would use with mono, to a sink tip or full sinking line will get that bugger down and twist less. Plus you’ll catch more fish with the sinking line.
If you don’t have a sinking line or a spare spool, you can make or buy a loop to loop sinking section to convert the floating line to a sink tip:
http://flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?33419-Sink-Tip-Question
When you wrap your hackle, make a complete wrap at the front of the bugger, maybe it will be less susceptible to twisting. Also go to larger tippet. I use 6x mostly and fish some 12-14 woolys. I don’t cast much though. Just lob to get it back in the water, little false casting like mentioned above.
I’ve got some of the loop to loop sinking lines I think they came from Orvis, let’s just say they don’t cast very well to say the least. I have some buggers that I have wrapped lead wire on the shank AND added a bead head to get the flys down when the flow is fast and these for some reason I didn’t have problems with these but the flow was not fast enough and I would hang up on the bottom so I went to the buggers I just used the lead wire on the hook shank these are the ones I had the twisting issues with. The 15th I will be back in Oklahoma and will have an assortment of leaders and I will give the leader chart a try and see what happens.
How much I fish the buggers I don’t know I was told by the only guy I saw catching anything last time that I should get some Tan, Gray, and Orange scuds in size #18 should be fun! I’ll be sure and report my findings when I get back. Thanks folks! Later,
Kirk
Regarding leader/tippet size, I’ve found sometimes you need to tweek the formula a bit. In addition to just the hook size, you might want to consider the nature of the fly. Is it heavy or bulky (wind resistant)? If so, you may want to up the size of your leader/tippet a notch. A size 10 dry fly fishes quite a bit different than a size 10 wooly bugger (or popper, or weighted nymph, etc)
Another consideration, different brands of mono have different characteristics. Some is very limp, some is stiffer. A stiffer mono tends to be able to turn over a larger fly (weight or bulk) than a limper mono.
Just something else to ponder.
I bumped up to a 5X and had no problem with the twist issue, funny thought ended up not catching a thing on the buggers! but a #18 tan beadhead jig I have been tying worked great so back to the 7X LOL Thanks fella’s for all the great information I appreciate it! Later,
Kirk
Leader/tippet is always a trade off - Casting ease vs. presentation. The stiffer or thicker the leader/tippet, the better it turns over. A thinner or limper leader/tippet is less likely to impart unwanted/unnatural movement to your fly.
In certain situation, that’s one of the advantages of a furled leader. A furled leader relies on mass, not stiffness to transfer the energy of your cast. A furled leader can, in theory, have enough mass to turn over your cast, but be supple enough to absorb abnormalities in cross currents and such.
Best advice, if something is not working as it should, try something else.
Yeah the more I flyfish I am finding out that most of the stuff you read about of hear about the “proper” way works about 8% of the time, the “art of flyfishing” seems to be to figure out the best way you can cast and get the fly to where you want it to go or in my case pretty close I find myself adjusting my casting and leader selections I guess I have either figured out more than I thought I did or have just come to realize that I don’t follow the norm and like to step outside the box.
I need to look into the furled leaders I tend to get into a spot that works and just stick with it I guess change is not always a bad thing. Guy thanks for all the help and advice! Later,
Kirk
Or fish dries!