I don't buy orvis anymore, not because of any particular compliant, but due to the cost. I go through leaders pretty quickly it seems and I like to fish new leaders when I do get to go on the river. So I have started buying the White River (store brand from bass pro). They aren't notted, but it only takes a second to through on a perfection loop and get going. I can usually buy two leaders for the price of one orvis leader. So that is the way that I go. I haven't had any problems with White River thus far.