Knot Theory

[dryflie]

I have used and trusted the double surgeon's knot for years/decades, never had a problem until this year. I typically use a double surgeon knot to tie 4X down to 5X from a furled leader and use a Turle knot at the fly. This month I've had two breakoffs at the double surgeon knot. Both breaks were on big LL Salmon, perhaps 3-5 lbs. It just may be that the size of these two fish was too much for the knot but it does have me looking for alternatives in material (this was Orvis Super Strong) and knots.

Al

[luke]

I had to go to Wally World last night and pick up some 4 lb test line to continue my experiment. All tests have been redone with this line.

Test Results:
Orvis vs Perfection loop - Orvis wins 29 to 1
Orvis vs Double Surgeons loop - Orvis wins 30 to 0
Orvis vs Triple Surgeons loop - Orvis wins 29 to 1

The most interesting test I did last night was Orvis vs Orvis. 4 times out of 10, the line broke in the middle away from both knots. I was impressed.

First nights conclusions:
Jeremy and Benjo are correct, loop knots on the tippet just aren't strong enough. I can now tie the Orvis, Perfection loop and Surgeons loop knots very quickly.

Tonights Knot Tests:
Blood knot, Ligature knot, Orvis tippet knot, Double Surgeons knot and Triple Surgeons knot.

Sites where I found out how to tie some of these knots:
[url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/knots/:5119c]Fly Anglers Online[/url:5119c]
[url=http://www.cabelas.com/information/cabelas-field-guides/Knot-Library-Fishing-Knots.html:5119c]Cabalas[/url:5119c]
[url=http://www.rackelhanen.se/eng/10017.htm:5119c]Rackelhanen[/url:5119c]
[url=http://www.killroys.com/knots/knots.htm:5119c]Killroys[/url:5119c]
[url=http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/index.html:5119c]Orvis[/url:5119c]

Thanks,
Luke

[This message has been edited by luke (edited 29 June 2005).]

[This message has been edited by luke (edited 29 June 2005).]

[Rich Ward]

JC great knot tiers think alike!

Rich

[Rich Ward]

JC I had a great afternoon and evening on the SF of the Snake yeaterday.

[stevehaun]

I don't understand why a surgeons knot is any stronger than a surgeons loop as they are basically the same knot. I use a loop-to-loop connection for my tippet and rarely (usually while extracting a fly from a tree) does the surgeons loop break. I think a triple surgeons loop is definitely stronger than a double.

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steve haun

[Rich Ward]

JC I'm headed out in about 30 min. WANA COME PLAY??

Rich

[Fishnfli]

Luke, I had the same problem with the surgeon's loop. It just kept breaking no matter how I treated it. Try what some have called the "King Sling". It's a loop knot, easy to tie, and won't, won't, won't break!! Basically, you simply double the tippet over so a loop is formed (about 4" of doubled material). Then grab mid way down the doubled mono with your thumb and fore finger, tie what amounts to a double clinch knot, and pull the loop through. This absolutely works!

[River Rat]

non slip loop knot.

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[url=http://www3.telus.net/freeman:ab8c1]http://www3.telus.net/freeman[/url:ab8c1]

[luke]

Results for last night:
Triple Surgeons knot vs Triple Surgeons loop - Triple Surgeons knot wins 30 to 0
King Sling vs Triple Surgeons Loop - King Sling wins 28 to 2
Orvis vs King Sling - Orvis wins 27 to 3
Orvis vs Double Surgeons knot - Orvis wins 25 to 5
Orvis vs Triple Surgeons knot - Triple Surgeons wins 16 to 8 with the line breaking in the middle the other 6 times.

I stopped at this point, I'm planning on going fishing on friday and I was low on wooly buggers. I'm going to use the Triple Surgeons knot while fishing to see how well it holds up in a real world environment.

[This message has been edited by luke (edited 30 June 2005).]

[stevehaun]

I stand corrected. The data is the data.

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steve haun