The bass are out, but I'm not seeing any panfish yet...

[Jim Hatch]

Questions for Garyj147:

Hi Gary, you identified yourself as a
fisheries biologist and I'm wondering if you
might be able to answer a few questions for
us. The object being to determine how best
to judge the occurance of prespawn conditions when the bluegills and red ears
will come shallow prior to bedding. This
is a prime fishing opportunity for those
that hit it right. My question I guess is
whether it is strictly driven by water
temperatures, or moon cycle, or both
combined. Or is there another consideration
being overlooked? I would assume, as I
mentioned above, that whatever the trigger
is that induces the females to produce eggs
is the real key factor. Perhaps the water
temps will continue to fluctuate during the
egg production cycle. It does seem though
that at least in my experience, actual
bedding will "normally" occur in close
proximity to the full moon and that
the water temperatures will normally be in
the 70 degree range. That being the case,
on my waters of Lake Moultrie, in the Santee
Cooper Lake chain in South Carolina, next
week "should" be the magic time for me to
catch some 16 inch red eared sunfish on
flies.*G* Can you offer any scientific
logic for determining when prespawn occurs?
Any input appreciated. Warm regards, Jim

[garyj147]

Jim,

Indeed there are a number of variables that can come into play when trying to determine when certain species of fish spawn. Of course, water temperature is one of the more important factors, but one must remember that "consistent" water temperatures is a key element! If your daytime weather is warm, but night-time temps dip low, the "consistent" water temperature may not be high enough to induce spawning. I've seen temp swings of several degrees in the shallow waters that bluegill typically prefer to spawn in with the passage of strong cold fronts and/or cold nights.
Now, other factors that come into play when trying to determine when fish spawn include latitude, photoperiod, and water clarity. Many folks think moon phase plays in this, other folks don't think that theory holds much water. Personally, I think moon phase affects when the majority of the individuals of several Centrarchid species when spawning. For example, here on Kentucky Lake, my 30-some years of experience with white crappie have me believing the majority of the fish spawn the week of the nearest full moon when "consistent" water temps are at or first go above 56 degrees.
"How does latitude play in fish spawning?" some may ask. Easy enough! Water temperatures reach preferred ranges earlier in more southern climes. Notice I said "ranges". These ranges appear to vary with latitude, perhaps explaining the discrepancies between researchers on spawning temps noted in an earlier post. Also, in the more northern latitudes, many waterbodies do not EVER reach temperatures that may be found in southern zones. This is where photoperiod may come into play a bit more. Even though water temps may not be at the optimum for the species, because of its actual location in more northern waters, the fish go on and spawn at less than optimum temps because that is the way Mother Nature adapted the fish to ensure their reproductive success along the more extreme northen edges of their native ranges.
Next, allow me to address water clarity for a brief moment. If the water in your local lake is clearer than "normal" during spawning season, you can bet fish such as crappies, bass, bluegills, and redears will spawn in deeper waters. Of course, water clarity is a factor of rainfall, runoff, and wind-induced stirring of sediments. (I'm discounting man mucking in the water with dredging, etc!)

Some additional observations from 30 years of being a "Fish-Head" include the following: Usually, the first Centrarchids to spawn are crappies, followed by smallmouth bass, spotted bass, largemouth bass, redear (very slightly behind largemouth bass), and bluegill. Of these, bluegill will get off several (multiple) spawns, especially in more southern waters, throughout the summer. Typically, the larger individuals of each species spawn first, selecting the best spawning sites. Also, typically with Centrarchids, the males come into the spawning areas first to prepare the nests. Now, crappie are the poorest nest builders, usually making only minimal efforts at fanning beds, if at all. But they don't need to as their eggs are adhesive, sticking to the roots of flooded bushes (buttonbush here on Kentucky Lake) and other aquatic vegetation. Bass, redear, and bluegill do much better jobs of nest construction, evidenced by the round, saucer depressions everyone is probably familiar with. Finally, in my experience, redears usually spawn deeper than bluegill. So, back off the banks a little more for them than you do for bluegill.
That is probably way more than anyone wanted to know of my opinions on this subject!

[Jim Hatch]

Hi Gary,

Not at all my friend. The more info we
can arm outselves with the more liklihood
of success in our respective endeavors. My
current endeavor since my recent retirement
is the pursuit of the red eared sunfish with
the flyrod. I am fortunate that I live on
Lake Moultrie in SC which has produced the
three largest red eared sunfish on record
and the current 5 pound 7 ounce world record
holder. While I have not yet landed one
over 4 pounds, I have had some very very
large red ears do battle on my 3 weight and
they were victorious. While it doesn't
detract from the experience one whit in my
opinion, I do look forward to capturing a
5 pounder with my camera before patting it
on it's ample bottom and returning it to
our productive waters.*G* Thank you so much
for your input. I am convinced that next
week will provide the best opportunity for
large red ears of my season. The cold
snaps kept dropping the water temps and to
date I have found no evidence of them
coming shallow or any fanning in the areas that they have traditionally frequented.
Thanks again! Warm regards, Jim

[zzdruid]

thanks Gary, valuable information.

The bedding in charlote , nc this year was strange and it was probably because we had a lot of temp swings right in the middle of the process. They were deeper this year and the water is clear in the lake I fish to 4 -6 feet. Outstanding in the piedmont.

[MOturkE]

Just an interjection of what I observed fishing bluegills Thursday afternoon.

Here near KC, MO the high temps had been consistently in the 70's for a couple of weeks and the overnight lows were in the mid-upper 50's (slightly cooler this week). I was on a small lake (4.5 acres, maybe) and noted that the shallow water was what I consider warm. I don't have a thermometer, so I don't know actual temp. We have recently had about 3 inches of rain but the water was still clear and warm. The wind was coming from the northwest at 5-10 mph, skies were overcast.

I was casting into the shallowest end of one arm of the lake. The structure of the arm is shallow from 0-3 ft to about 5 yards out, cattails grow on the shallowest bank and there's moss floating in clumps about 12 inches around. Below the surface the bottom is covered with organic material and differing types of moss.

I waded out 3 ft from the shore and was casting between clumps of moss near the cattails. I used tan/yellow dry flies left to sit still on the surface to a count of 10 seconds before moving it (not very often). Also with assorted nymphs and a blue & brown woolly worm (all hook size , stripping back slowly about 3 ft at a time (again, not very often). Most often the line would only move 8-15 inches and the line would tighten after a noticable swirl, then quickly swing right or left then head for moss or deep water. Sometimes the strike would be almost vicious, and setting the hook was often unneccesary. Very few strikes were missed or lost.

The gills caught numbered about 30 over a 3 hour time frame and out of these I took only 1 that I could guess was a female (colored lighter than others, no orange or blue), and it was taken in 4-6 ft deep water. All of the males were between 4-8 inches long, most with a very orange belly and blue-ish face and one or two with a very distinct blue face.

When I arrived about 3:30 pm I was alone. At one point I was catching a fish on every cast, when I began to enjoy these odds my fly was smashed by what felt like one of the larger gills. This fish was able to take my fly and tippet under a 1 inch diameter stick under the surface and left the fly imbedded in it as he swam away. I thought of wading over to un"stick" my fly, but decided to break off for fear of disturbing the beds.

A small group of people came out at about 5 pm and they fished the deep end of the lake away from me. I heard one of the kids get a bluegill and another individual was able to get a small bass, but they were fairly unsuccessful otherwise. I continued to fish until around 6 pm and only left so I could get home for supper and time for the family.

I'm planning to get back out to this lake next week and we'll see what the gills are up to then. I've fished this lake since last Summer and these were the largest gills I've seen. I'm sure they were there last year, I just didn't get into the spawn time.



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There's almost nothin' wrong with the first lie, it's the weight of all the others holdin' it up that gets ya'! - Tim

[Jim Hatch]

Hey Moe,

Sounds like a great afternoon. I hope
my knee will be up to snuff in a few days so
I can get back to chasing and maybe do a bit
of catching.*G* Warm regards, Jim

[Linemender]

Hay Dog, Just a word to a fellow local. We slammed the gills saturday at Stan Coffin, off of Rd 5 behind the Quincy golf course. Caught em all day on the popper of your choice. They were in from 1-5 ft of water at the nw corner of the lake. Also caught a nice little (15") bass and a plate sized crappie on same litte green frog popper I was using for bluegill. We gotta hook up dude. I would love to start fishing O'Sullivan more.

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Cary Morlan

Living my dreams one day at a time

[atomic_dog]

Cary,

Which end is the northwest end? Is that where the road passes next to the lake?

Were you fishing from a pontoon boat on saturday? I was there with my wife and a couple friends most of the day saturday. I think we got there at around noon, left in the evening. My friend and I were in float tubes, the wives were trolling in a small aluminum boat.

I was catching some small bluegill down where the lake narrows on small nymphs. Didn't see anything of size, though. Saw lots of good size bass, though, and what I think were a couple of catfish. The ladies were trolling with 5" grubs on ultralight spinning rods. They ended up catching some decent bass.

I have fridays off, so send me an email at atomicdoggie at gmail.com if you want to do some fishing around here.

[atomic_dog]

as an update to my original post, I hit this lake again on sunday morning. A cold front had come in and it was cloudy, windy and cooler than it had been and some rain came through as well. I don't know if this had any effect on things or not. The water temp was at 65 to 66 degrees according to my thermometer. Still didn't see any gills roaming around. When I checked one of the shallow bedding spots I did find a couple big gills hanging out. I'm guessing they are early arrivals, maybe males preparing beds? Didn't see any gills anywhere else in the lake, shallows or otherwise.

After a good skunking, we decided to pull out the spinning reels for a bit. (blasphemy, I know!) We were in a large cove, maybe an acre in size. Rigged with soft plastic baits we started catching bass on nearly every cast. They ranged from 12 to 17 inches. What a hoot on unlralight setups! Didn't seem to matter where in the cove we were at we never went more than a couple casts over the course of two hours without at least getting a bite. I need to try and put together a fly that mimics these pastic baits somewhat.

If the sun stays out all week I suspect the bluegills will be getting up in the shallows pretty soon.

Oh yeah, you folks are giving some outstanding info in this thread. It's fascinating to read through, thanks!