Who tied those flies?

[Andy B]

RW:

Keep in mind that wet flies from the old country all had soft hackles for the collar on winged wets. Very hard not to find a traditional winged wet back in the 1800's that did'nt. As time went on and these flies started arriving in America, the Full collar for some reason started to be lossed and the false hackle/beard came about. Harry Darby when he tied traditional winged wets tied his flies with a full collar. Harry felt the false hackle or beard was useless and the the full collar added more movement to make the fly a little more life like. I have tied my fishing flies both ways and have caught a good amount of fish. I really need to pay attention this year to see which one works better or see that there really was'nt no differance. Soft hackle wet flies work and work well. I have seen over the past two years of experiments that traditional winged wet flies has worked extremely well and has not failed me. What failed me was my presentaition of them. Getting skunked a day or two and you quickly figure things out on how to get them to work. I will not say anything or comment any negative issues with soft hackles. I to fish them and like them a lot. Liesenring truly was the master of them in the USA and all the fish he caught I feel was proof enough how affective soft hackles are. I will not pit one against the other. I feel both styles of wet flies deserves a place in your fly box. I really feel Nemes is a little to opinionated when it came to both styles of flies soft hackles vs winged wets. Nemes in his book two centuries of soft hackled flies can be quoted in the introduction on page X " When other American writers such as Ray Bergman wrote about wet flies, they dealt with patterns tied with gaudy wings and tinsel bodies, flies that in no way resembled the subdued, delicate style of soft hackled flies." Also to end this text Nemes also added " In one of his articals of Forest and Stream, Gordon noted that "winged flies are the favorite of this country, and are usually the most successful". Patterns in Bergmans book Trout, Gaudy, I think not. They are fine works of art that truly catch fish. I bought Nemes books because I too have an interest in soft hackled wet flies. I feel these flies are simplistic yet affective. Some are nice looking and the rest are drab ugly. Both styles of wet flies catch fish. I fish with both styles and feel like I said before they deserve a place in your fly box. I respect the writing and knowledge of Liesenring and Skues. I feel these were to fine men that were ahead of there time. Bergman was the Anglers Angler that all could relate to. Bergman brought his lessons and learning and teaching down to the common mans level. The common man could totaly relate to Rays triumphs and days of failure. Don has shown me via a slide show the Herters catlogue where the patterns found in Ray Book Trout were for sale all over. It's hard to believe that these flies were not fish catchers back then and hard to beleive they will not catch fish today. My trials and Tribulations on the Willowemoc, BeaverKill in NY, Fishing Creek and the Tully in PA, The Ken Lockwood Gorge and the Big Flatbrook and Pequest in NJ over the past two years with nothing but Bergman wet flies has been a big success. Yes I was skunked here and there, why because of my presentation. This has taken two years to figure out what I was doing wrong and at times stumble upon what to do differently that lead me to success. Classic winged wet flies work, they catch fish, they are a thing of beauty. I really feel Ray was right about fishing these flies and how to fish them. What I have been learning of late is when to fish the patterns, meaning time of day and month as well as bright sunny days, over cast and at night. Now far as wet flies for my self this year to fish with, I have tied myself 23 dozen. Now I am working on a Dozen for Hans, this year for some reason I have come out of my shell to let all see and critisize my work. I bet Allan tied at least double the amount of wet flies. Rw care to wager on Allans totals.

Andy B

[Royal Wulff]

Don, RW here,

Ironic. I just read your post about JB's favorite fly for night fishing, the Grizzly King. I just got up from tying a half dozen of that very fly.

Andy:

I won't wager on Allan's numbers. The only time he isn't tying flies is when he's walking his man-eating dog, "Bear". Besides, all fisherman lie..... except me. I never told a lie in my life. I thought I did once but I was wrong.

All fly tiers have tweaked the basic recipes over the years. Rube Cross tied one of my favorites, the light cahill, all white cept for the woodie wings. When wet, it imitates a tiny shiner better than any wet fly I know that's made of natural materials (fur and feathers). I tie wets with both soft hackle and even dry fly hackle. I trim the top where the wings lay in and feel that a trimmed dry collar gives a better appearance of legs than soft hackle layed tight against the body by the current.

Tied with dry fly hackle, I have caught trout on the same fly on consecutive casts fishing a wet (dark cahill) as an emerger and as a dry fly. A couple false casts, a squirt of floatant and the change is complete. It was a caddis hatch. I'm not much of a hatch matcher. lol. Fishing a wet fly dry was also mentioned in Hughes book.

Any serious fisherman likes to put his theories into practice. Sometimes they work, other times they don't, but ain't it fun.

Later, RW

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"We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours." -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-




[This message has been edited by Royal Wulff (edited 01 April 2005).]

[Don Bastian]

Andy:

In good-hearted humor and pure fun, (no malice or ill-will intended) I think you (like my deceased uncle used to say about his wife, his mother-in-law, and his sister-in-law, my mother - that's three different women for those of you who might have missed it) - "You must have been vaccinated with a Victrola needle." LOL, LOL, <G>G<G><G<G><G>

Tyeflies:

I remember Jim Bashline talking also about fishing "a brace of Grizzly Kings" throughout the day. Another of his favorite rigs.

Andy and All:

Trout take anything - whatever it is - even if they don't know what it is, as a food item. Or perhaps in some cases out of aggression. Otherwise, they have no clue and care not whether it's a soft-hackle, a glo-bug, a Catskill Dry, a winged wet, a Green Weenie, or a Copper John. We anglers at times over hype this subject and try to get inside the mind of the fish and figure everything out to "Nth" degree.

Wasn't this topic originally about published fly photos without acknowledgement of the tier who tied them?

Don or RW,

I've been reviewing JB's book NFFT. I didn't see any mention that the Grizzly King was his 'favorite'. Actually, in the chapter titled, 'Night Fly', the first pattern mentioned is the Yellow Dun as tied by Mrs. Phillips. He goes on to say that his one original tie of this fly is priceless because no one has ever been able to reproduce the dubbing. In the chapter, 'Some Favorite Night Flies' he lists 23 patterns.
So please clarify?

Don,
Threads often get waylayed and meander into another topic. More often than not, it's because the people who respond are enthusiastic about what's being said. In the exploration of the original topic, its history, clarifications, delving into the techniques, and other interests often raise more questions. These types of topics often develop a life of their own. Surprisingly (or maybe not) when topics like these finally get a little old and are redirectedl into the archives, someone new to the site will resurrect the topic with a similar question. Just ask RW how many times in the last 3 years the term 'Catskill Flies' or 'Catskill Style' has been raised.

Allan

[Royal Wulff]

Allan, RW here

I think one of the threads on Catskill Style about a year ago made it to 113 posts. It's a good subject with many points of view. Fun nevertheless.

Later, RW

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"We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours." -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[Don Bastian]

Allan:

With all due respect, I was NOT totally serious when I closed with the remark about the original topic. I am enjoying this whole thing anyway. It's was just my best idea at the time for a closing remark. I know that's how we humans communicate. It's called conversation, and runs like water, following the path of least resistance. Though oft times when conversation reaches a point of greater resistance, (usually depending on the number of Type "A" personalities in any given conversational group) - and I ain't even a psychologist - it builds, and builds, and gains momentum and pressure, increasing in intensity at various rates until something happens to change its direction and intensity once again. (usually when the Type "A" personality people fall asleep or go home). <G> LOL !!

I am certain though, without taking the time to go referencing as you did, that Jim Bashline did in fact mention somewhere, about fishing with a "brace of Grizzly Kings." Perhaps it was in an old copy of Pennsylvaina Angler magazine, Bashline was editor for a few years. My memory is pretty dang good. Just ask my wife. (That's intended to be funny).

Now if you want to see a bit 'o' the fightin' side of me, go to the main page, click on "Sound Off" then click on "Humane Society" and see my post there.

I'm e-mailed the info to my niece - high school class valedictorian, fly tier, (I gave her a copy of my DVD for Christmas and she's already, by mid-January - tied every pattern by the dozen and has moved beyond the 8 flies in the video to additional patterns) fly fisher, 1st degree karate blackbelt at age 15, and freshman at UNH - and her reply to the PETA, Humane Society, Friends of Animals, & other goofballs, - so darn good and "right on" for that topic, I think I'm going to visit that page again later tonight and post verbatim what she said!

PS - Lately Emily (my niece) has been tying Silver Doctors (trout wet fly versions). She's 20. Too young for you Andy!

There IS a future in fly fishing & fly tying.

Ha!

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"Feed the good wolf."

[This message has been edited by Don Bastian (edited 01 April 2005).]

[Andy B]

Don as I tell my wife, the older the violin the sweeter the Music. Any who, RW and Allan are friends of mine and at times are educators, debaters, ears and lastly just damb good people that I am happy to know, fish with and tie with. You should see RW and I when were tying and talking about dead wood. I am enthusiastic and always craving for knowledge and a good debate or a lesson. Some times I am right in my thoughts and statements, other times I have RW and Allan to keep me correct and headed down the road of the right path. So talking or debating with these guys always makes me think, learn and most of the time just have fun. Nothing ever personal with peopple on this web site. If I am mad or upset I say so. Look look at the Roscoe Fish In Wrap up 2004. These are my friends and people I respect. Now off the subject, Allan when you take one of your vises to bed does any of the others seem to get upset. All I know RW says it's so. How can I not believe an angler that never lied.

******G******

Andy B

Andy & RW,
Just to say that whenever I've taken my vise(s) to bed, I never gotten the shaft *G*

Don,
There is a passage in the book where JB talks about a brace of Grizzly Kings.

Okay, I have a lot of quills to prepare, dye and package. See you guys in a few weeks.

Allan

[Royal Wulff]

Andy, RW here

Sometimes when I'm with friends that don't fish or tie or even participate in any of the outdoor sports, I show them the fontinalis fin you tied me at last years fish-in. They remark on how beautiful it is. Then I tell them that you were a champion bull rider in the rodeo circuit in your hay day. They are astonished that someone that does something so rough and tough and dangerous can make something so delicate and beautiful. Something to ponder over I guess.

Later, RW

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"We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours." -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[Leighs522]

Andy, you're pretty vague about what you've learned about fishing these classic wets, other than to suggest the use of an intermediate line in faster water. How about a few paragraphs (or pages, if you're really inspired) on things you've learned fishing these flies. It would really help those of us who can barely scrape together a few days to fish a year to make better use of these flies and have some fun. Tying these flies is fun (I seem to tie them instead of my regular nymphs and dries that I still fish most of the time. If I keep this up I won't anything but classic wets to fish); help us have more fun fishing them. Leigh