Who tied those flies?

[Don Bastian]

I got an e-mail from Eric Austin last night. A few FAOL members & readers recall my trial-and-error goof-ups when I first became a member and entered a few Bulletin Board thread topics around March 22. Eric ordered my newly released fly tying DVD on classic wet flies, and also told me about seeing some of my work on the FAOL topic "Old Flies." This morning I went to this subject and viewed the current article by Eric (nice flies!) and was delighted to see many historic patterns receiving well-deserved attention.
Then out of curiosity I looked in the archives. More than a score of the old wet fly names such as the Trout Fin, Henshall, Scarlet Ibis, Cowdung, are classic wet flies tied by me personally with photos from Forgotten Flies (Complete Sportsman, April 2000).
I'm not completely vain, but the first thing I want to know when I look at a fly photo is "Who tied it?" Only one fly out of more than a dozen I viewed had my name listed as the tier.
This is about like reviewing a new book without revealing the author's name.
My viewpoint is this. When a writer presents factual information on the subject of fly patterns, I feel that the person who tied the sample should be given due credit.
And while I'm at it, with the recent resurging interest in classic wet flies, (HOORAY!) there are numerous myths being unknowingly perpetrated and unwittingly passed into the maintstream of fly tying information.
A few of these myths:
1) When I tie the classic wet flies at shows (as I always do), many people ask me, seemingly as if they already know the answer, "Are you using goose shoulder for the married wings?" They anticipate my affirmation.
"No, hardly ever," is my pat reply.
They're like, "Dude what?" They seem so surprised by my answer. I say let the truth be known.
1) Nearly ALL the old classic wet flies were tied with duck WING QUILL, not goose or swan SHOULDER. Tying wet flies with wings is a purely a matter of matching texture to texture. It's also about correctly selecting and sizing the materials used to the size of the hook. Duck wing quills were (and still are!) much better suited to the sizes of wet fly hooks, traditionally tied and sold on hook sizes #6 through #12. Goose wing quill is the next best substitute.
2) Goose shoulder, as my friend Stack Scoville put it, lacks the "backbone" to properly build the wet fly wing.
3) Only a scant handful of the 440 wet flies from Ray Bergman's book Trout (193 actually have goose shoulder in the wing. The lion's share of the remainder are tied with duck wing quill. The few exceptions that come to mind are the Silver Doctor, Cassard, Denison, Lake Edward, and Ferguson. That's because these patterns have waterfowl FLANK or brown mottled turkey quill in the wing. Remember my first statement - tying married wings (proficiently) is ALL about matching texture to texture.
Waterfowl flank feathers such as barred wood duck, teal, and brown mottled turkey, (while not actually a flank feather), all have very soft textured barbs. They marry well with goose shoulder because, matching texture to texture, they are all flank feathers, or in the case of the brown mottled turkey, have textures very close to that of waterfowl flank.
4) I was dismayed to see the hook sizes suggested by the author of some of the wet fly patterns listed in FAOL "Old Flies." (#10 to #16) Truth: I have a 1936 Weber catalog, listing 234 wet fly patterns in "standard sizes of #6 to #12. Other sizes available by special order." The old timers fished wets as large as #2 and #4. Remember, many of these flies were created in the glory days of trophy brook trout fishing.
Ask Andy Brasko about how well he did on the Beaverkill last October (all month) with a size #6 Captain.
5) Correct number of ribs on a standard wet fly pattern: EXACTLY FIVE. This is very important. Not set by me, but by the established standards of the day. This becomes critical in wet fly construction when tying patterns with both a rib AND a palmered hackle because the two ingredients must fit together like hand-in-glove.
And finally, one correction:
The "Old Flies" article on the Trout Fin (tyed by yours truly) lists the wrong color in the wing. It's narrow strips of white & black, married to ORANGE, not red as stated in the article.
There's more, but that's it for now. I have flies to tie.

Tight threads people!

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"Feed the good wolf."

[This message has been edited by Don Bastian (edited 30 March 2005).]

Hi Don,

Great post. Thanks for the clarifications. I've one question about finishing wet flies that perhaps you would answer.

Recently I tried using a thin coat of Sally Hansen's HANs and then a thin layer of 5 minute epoxy as a finishing coat on the heads of several wet flies. The result was a very glossy head. I know you use a 4 step finishing process but have you ever tried this? If so, was there any visual difference?

See you at the Rendezvous.

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 30 March 2005).]

[ELKHUNTER]

I haven't seen a Cowdung fly in 20years.Most people i have mentioned it too
have never heard of it.When i first started fly fishing it was my favorite fly.Back then i did not even know the difference between a wet or a dry.All i knew was i had flies and i was fishing.I caught more trout on the cowdung than any other fly i had.

Rocky

[Don Bastian]

Tyeflies: I have done some stuff with epoxy. Some of the 265 or so streamers & bucktails that I tied for the "Checklist of Streamers and Bucktails" Chapter of Forgotten Flies have a thin coating of 5 min. epoxy (finished with Black Pro Lak head cement). It does give a smooth, tough head. I used it there primarily because the flies for that chapter were being tied on a super rush deadline and I had to finish them quickly. Epoxy allowed me to do one coat and the finish coat of Pro Lak, instead of the normally four to five (on streamers) coats of lacquer cement.
I feel most wet flies are too small to bother with the epoxy. I actually dislike using epoxy anyway. My version of the Copper John is tied with some "shiny black stretchy stuff" instead of the epoxy wingcase. Epoxy is a pain in the tokus.
Besides, "traditional" and "classic" wet flies don't need epoxy to make them look good. Besides, if you make a mistake, it's hard to correct it.
By the way, I'm a guy who has never experimented with nail polish on my flies. Not ever. Don't need to. The brush is too big (I use very small drops with the tip of my bodkin to apply cement), the opening on the bottle is too small, it costs more than lacquer head cement, and I have been getting excellent results with what I'm using. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Nail polish belongs on a woman's fingernails.

Hi Don,

"Epoxy is a pain in the tokus."
* It's 'touchas' (-;

"The brush is too big (I use very small drops with the tip of my bodkin to apply cement), the opening on the bottle is too small."
* Agree. But I've found some great containers and use a needle. I'll bring you one at the Rendezvous.

"Nail polish belongs on a woman's fingernails."

* You MC. (-:

All said with a *G*

Regards,

Allan

[Helicopsyche]

Don Bastian
You said you use some "shiny black stretchy stuff" for your copper johns. I was wondering if you would share what this illusive material is?
Thanks,
Adam

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vox clamantis in deserto

[Don Bastian]

All right, first things first.
Tyeflies: I recall vaguely the study of heiroglyphics in elementary & junior high school, but I can't remember ever seeing the sympbols you used in your reply. Please explain the meaning of (-: and (-;

Is there any difference? One ends with a colon, the other a semi-colon. What's up wit dat?
I think I figured out what "MC" is. Male chauvanist, perhaps? I've been called worse.
By the way, I detest political correctness.
There ARE some absolutes in this world.
Finally, what's the *G* thing? I think I understand your general intent but not the complete truth.

And if you don't mind me continuing to defend my position, nail polish DOES belong on a woman's fingernails. I'm not saying they all have to use it. But if not, why in tarnation was it invented? Surely not for fly tyers! In fact I'll wager a freshly tied #6 Parmachene Belle with a signature card that if you (or anyone else) started researching it, you'd find that nail polish goes back in time way, way father than the first mention of artificial fishing flies - (I believe it was the Red hackle in Macedonia around 200 A. D.) Nail polish is way older! Look at the ancient Egyptian women for criminy's sake!

Helicopsyche: (did I spell that right?)
The shiny black stretchy stuff to which I referred was my way of not bothering to get up from my computer to see what it is actually called.

Which brings up another sore subject with me. Many fly tying materials on the market, the same exact material, but marketed by different companies, yet called by totally different names. Example: Flexi-Floss, Dyna-Floss, Floss-Flex, same darn thing with different names from 3 diifferent marketers. Not manufacturers. It's all made by DuPont. How confusing is this? No wonder beginning fly tyers are intimidated!!!Forgive me, I digress.

Now that you've called me to accountability, I'll have to get up and rummage though one of my tying drawers...

OK - here is your answer. It wasn't elusive at all, just my laziness.
One thing I use is Hareline Dubbin Co. "Nymph Stretch Skin." The other is thinner than the Nymph Stretch Skin and is in fact the exact same product (here we go again!) as Scud Back, but from Spirit River it's called: Bodi-Stretch. I like the black for Copper Johns.
That reminds me, recently I was listening to one of my Brook's & Dunn CD's; in one song they're singin' 'bout a bar room scene somewhere, (I think the song is "See Jane Dance" and there's a line in the song saying "something, something, something, and a sea of copper johns." They ain't talkin''bout fishin'!
I have used the widest size of Pearlescent Mylar tinsel for the wingcase, like on a flash-back nymph. Lot's of options. Please, anything except expoy!
I have also used a small bundle of black Krystalflash for the wingcase. The fish like it.

Back to Tyeflies:
Obviously I like to tie most of my flies from start-to-finish IN THE VISE and not have to go back to them for another process. That's the bad thing about epoxy (not to mention the smell). But then again, I go back over my tied wet flies three more times after they've left the vise just to put head cement on. But, I believe it's the attention to details that makes the difference between mediocre flies and well-tied, even excellent flies.
It all comes down to each of us doing things differently.

Kapisch?

[Hans Weilenmann]

Don,

Enjoy your introduction to 'emoticons' or 'smilies'.

There are heaps of them, but here is a sample of some of the more commonly used ones. For all of them, they should be seen as 'faces', turned 90 degrees.

or = smiling, happy face
or = smiling, happy face, with wink added
= sad, unhappy face

(I am sure you are getting the picture - pun intended - now)

the *G* or <G> means Grin or Grinning
*L* or <L> laugh or laughing

LOL = Laughing Out Loud
ROTFL = Rolling On The Floor Laughing
FOTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A$$ Off

etc etc etc

Have fun,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places === [url=http://www.danica.com/flytier:2420e]http://www.danica.com/flytier[/url:2420e]


[This message has been edited by Hans Weilenmann (edited 30 March 2005).]

Don,

My knowledge of internet initials is very limited.

(-: = smile/happy face
(-; = sort of a happy sly smile/wink
*G* = A big grin

I have no problem with anyone being a MC at times and regarding certain things. Being 'equal' does not mean being the 'same'. I agree that nail polish is best served on womens fingernails. Which leads me to wonder if there is a chemical difference between many of the 'head cements', lacquers and nail polishes? Any chemists in the house?

"Kapisch?" - YES!

Don, by the way, had a checkup yesterday and actually gained some weight!

Regards.

Allan

[Andy B]

Well it warms my heart to see Don here talking wet flies. I felt alone for way to long. Nice to see you here my good friend and mentor. I read the post and will try to express my thoughts here. I would like to start out about Dons four step head finish process. I have been shown and stressed by Don to follow this process to turn out a quality well detail oriented fly. I decided last year that maybe this was not true. So like a good student I began to experiment. I tried Nail Polish, Hard as Hull, skipping an extra coat to make it a three part process. Bottom line, I did like the results. I went back to the way I shown and loved the end result. One thing that was not mentioned, if you look at Doctor Burkes plates you will see all the Heads on the flies with a few exceptions like the Silver Doctor or the Bob Wilson are all Jet Black. The four step process allows the flies to look like the plates. The others have some flaws and imperfections. Have any one here ever noticed they tie that well formed head off and apply the head cement and a coat or two you may notice mabe that an air bubble was trapped or some of the wax off the thread lifted and was suspended in the cement and dried. I know I can see it. I also know when I use the four step finish process, I don't see it. I am not saying that this happens all the time or that you can't get a fly or two to look perfect. It's just that this process takes that issue away and obtains that jet black head.
Far as winging goes, I can not stress how right Don is. Again, I experimented and did not like the results at all. I have practiced and practiced again all the techniques that Don has provided me. The flies always comes out to my liking. When they do not, it's either due to I got lazy and skipped a step or forgot to use a technique that you see in Don's DVD. All I can say to everyone that is still reading is do you want to tie beautiful wet flies as listed in Bergman's book Trout or do you want to just tie flies that look Okay to nice. Don's lessons and Teaching along with all the techniques that Don provides is what makes the differance.
The past two years I have fished with nothing smaller than a size eight wet fly. I have had such success with these flies on the Willowemoc, Beaverkill and in other streams in NJ & PA. The thing about these larger flies was not the size of the fly but how they are fished. I learned some good lessons last year how a good moving current affects these larger flies. It was getting skunked a day or two that lead me to use and intermedaite sink line in faster moving water. I had so many hook ups and takes that I fished with nothing but a size 6. A 4 inch Rainbow on the Beaverkill Smacked and took a size 6 wet fly. The fly was my favorite of all the patterns listed called the Captain. I have taken repeatedly little fish like these right up to size 23 inch Browns. It's not the size of the wet fly that matters but more the presentation. Successfull Patterns so far that worked in size 6 & 8 are as follows:

Black Prince, Montreal, Captain, Yellow Sally, Fontinalis Fin, English March Brown Male & Female, Pink Lady, Professor, Grizzly King, Blue Professor, Grey Hackle Peacock, Scarlet Ibis, Golden Dun, Black Gnat.

All the flies just mentioned caught fish extremely well and were either a size 6 or size 8.

I have to agree with Don again about the number of ribs being five. Look at Trout and you will notice this. Doctor Burke was very detail oriented and his plates show this. This was not a standard set by Don. This Rib equaling five was long before Don and I were born. Well Have to go and will input more later, Time to fire up the Grill. Tonight for Annie and I, it will be a Cheesburger in Paradise.

Andy B

[This message has been edited by Andy B (edited 30 March 2005).]