Quite early on, Marinaro used angora yarn for the bodies. Much later, he felt that, since his flies stayed above the surface (his opinion), he dispensed with bodies completely.
Chuck
Quite early on, Marinaro used angora yarn for the bodies. Much later, he felt that, since his flies stayed above the surface (his opinion), he dispensed with bodies completely.
Chuck
Marinaro used a ball of dubbing where the wing is attached. The hackle could be wound around the ball. I believe he suggested wrapping the hackle with the short fibers behind the wing on the top of the hook, but in front of the wing/ball when under the hook. The hackle with the longer fibers was wrapped in front of the wing on top of the hook, but behind the wing/ball under the hook.
I don't see this clearly in Byron's example, even though it is a beautiful fly.
The reason for this hackling method was to tip the head down and the butt up. Real mayflies don't drag their tails in the water - often their abdomens don't even get immersed. This is the profile Marinaro tried to present. See 'A Modern Dry Fly Code', pg 77.
And Byron, on page 251 and 252 he does use fur.
Last edited by Greg H; 01-30-2014 at 06:01 AM.
I have always felt the thorax tie represents a bug in the film, either at the end of emergence or slightly struggling. Yet it crosses over as a perfectly fine dun as well. I think the adjusted profile at times triggers a rise. Especially in lesser flows. Other times.....it doesn't.
Greg,
I did tie the hackle in the X fashion against the thorax. If you look at the pic I posted of his instructions from "In the Ring of the Rise", under #4, he says "....no body - just a thorax". That is what Valla also says in his book about Marinaro in "Founding Flies".
Quite interesting the differing quotes of his.
I would also say that the only thorax patterns I have seen in use today are the Eric Pepper inspired variations which just have standard hacking in vertical position behind and in front of the wing and then clipped underneath.
Has anyone seen Marinaro's X-hackled, no bodied flies in a shop??
I think we need to keep in focus the fact that all tyers are similar in many ways. Even Vince Marinaro. He fished, and wanted to catch fish. He adjusted his patterns in order to catch fish. Patterns change. They adjust out of requirements of the water, observations by the fisherman, and at times simply out of boredom or curiosity of the tyer. Patterns are generally very fluid in nature.
Did Peper's version come before the Lawson Thorax Dun?
Did it come before Datus Proper's Perfect Dun?
That's an an interesting question.
Not sure when Lawson came up with his, but I think Pepper was tying it in the mid to late 80 's.
I did find a statement by noted tier Don Bastain that Lawson visited Cathy and Barry Beck in 1989 or 1990 and adapted their style pattern of the thorax fly for use in his catalog.
I also found a great little write-up by LadyFisher on this site about Vince Marinaro. : "The hackles do not puncture the surface film, but because of the angle at which they are tied, the fly rides on the bent edges of the hackle. Cutting a "V" in the underside of the hackle on a traditionally tied fly does not work the same as tying the fly per Vince's method."
Last edited by Byron haugh; 02-01-2014 at 05:34 PM.
Very true. The thorax fly as described in the A Modern Dry Fly Code is quite different than the one described in Ring of The Rise. Bryon already posted the description from Ring. Here's a summary of the tying sequence from Code (it's almost 4 pages long in the book) Direct quotes are in italics:Originally Posted by NJTroutbum
Start the thread in the center of shank. There's a really emphasis in center: If there is any doubt about the location of the center of the shank, start the silk a a little closer to the bend than the eye. This is important. (The latter sentence was in italics in the book.)
Tie in the tails, using 4 fibers (no mention of using different numbers for different size hooks.) Separate the same way as in Ring.
Tie in a piece of spun fur 6 or 7 inches long using only one ply; it is usually 2- or 3- ply, but the plies can be easily separated. Apparently he used pre-spun dubbing and bought it that way. He needed to use pre-spun to complete the next few steps
Wrap the pre-spun fur up to the wings -- unlike in Ring, the whole body is dubbed. Take several extra turns behind and in front of the wings. Tie off in front of the wings, but don't trim the extra.
Tie in two hackles in front of the wing, tips pointing rearward One hackle should have slightly longer fibers than the other. Wrap that one with top part of the wrap in front of the wing and bottom behind the wing. Tie off, wrap the shorter-fibered one with top part behind the wing and bottom in front. This is hackle he recommends clipping if too long.
Advance the thread to near eye. Wind the remaining spun fur to the thread, wind back to the wing, and back to the eye a second time. Tie off and finish the fly.
Smaller flies called for a different technique, essentially palmering a single hackle as a rib.
Bob
This is the type of fly I consider the "modern" thorax dun.
Not knowing Peper's influence, I've always referred to this as the Lawson Thorax Dun to distinguish it from Marinaro's.This is the type of fly I consider the "modern" thorax dun.
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