Halford's Ghost

[Buddy Sanders]

I seldom fish in fly fishing only waters, and those few times are just for trout.

I do know that a small plastic worm on a hook is deadly when presented with a fly rod for bass fishing, and fortunitly bass waters are more egalitarian and you can use pretty much whatever you want to fish with. I think it's because bass are much harder to catch than trout anyway, and don't need the protection such restrictions provide.

I've even caught some really nice bass using a live nightcrawler with my fly rod, but it takes a quite a bit of casting skill to keep it from leaving the hook, and few fly casters can manage it. The very first time I fly fished for trout, many, many years ago, we were using what they called 'red worms' back then. Just a small hook with a live worm. Worked really well. So does a single salmon egg on a hook. And the new Berkeley 'Trout Worms' are awesome trout baits. Not something for fly/lure only areas, though.

In any event, the only trout I've caught on the diving baits I use have been ones caught accidentally while fishing for bass. These things are time consuming to tie and I can catch pretty much all the trout I want on simpler flies. I save the more creative stuff for the bass.



Buddy

[pittendrigh]

You walk a really fine line with "Fly Fishing" The powerbait worm tied to a hook damn near threw me off my chair. I certainly know a State Trooper or two who would be more than happy to take your gear and give you a huge ticket if you ever dare use those on a Fly Fishing only river!!!

In Montana there is no fly fishing only, except on a few private spring creeks (1). Yellowstone Park does have two or three river-sections designated as fly fishing only. I ask every year when I get my annual Park Fishing Pass. The answer is always the same. In Yellowtone Park fly fishing only means "not bait." When I asked why the ranger said they threw up their hands and gave up, when trying to define fly fishing.

The same ranger also volunteered they had discussed the idea of abandoning any references to fly fishing only because the few places designated that way do (always) end up the most crowded. And they do assume a correlation between the overcrowding and the meaningless designation.

RE> "the powerbait worm"
Actually it was not a worm. It was a good looking Golden Stonefly Nymph. More realistic than many, if not most. It does fish well too.


Diving bill wigglers (even those far too light to successfully cast with a spinning rod) might at first glance be categorized as "not flies" simply because they do have a diving bill. But then you'd have to outlaw the Dahlberg Diver too. And what about "wiggle nymphs" and "articulated streamers?" You're already sliding down a corn-snow avalanche chute at that point.

Perhaps weight is the most meaningful comparitor. If the fish attractor at hand is too light to cast with a spinning rod, then perhaps it should not be categorized as belonging to that realm (for those who do care about categories).

(1) Twenty years or so ago, when I was still guiding the spring creeks in Montana, my customers left early one day.
I stopped at the big culvert below the PHD pool on DePuy's Spring Creek. I cast a small wiggler downstream along the West bank and slowly worked it upstream using what little almost-still water there was 2-3" off the bank. A big 20" plus brown jumped on the wiggler half way back to my rod tip. Bob Auger (the river keeper at that time) came running up to my side with two fly fishermen in tow. I released the fish. One of the two fly fisherman asked if what I was doing was legal. Bob grinned and said: "It's small it's got feathers on it and Sandy made it. I run the creek and it's a fly as far as I'm concerned."

[Lake Erie High Ball]

Pittendrigh

I am sorry I don’t have the time to tie “the” fly I am talking about but bear with me and let me try to describe it I think it will be a winner for you and keep the fly integrity (or not, maybe someone could post the law as it relates for fly only waters and fill me / us in)

I tied this fly (above or below? Not sure were it will show up) for steelhead fishing. The hook shank is dubbed over lead wire (doesn’t really show up in the picture). I wrap the shank towards the eye of the hook if I want it to dive and will tie it towards the bend of the hook if I want a horizontal drop. (I hope that made sense)

I think it was just before the spring of 2010 I made a post on Loons Knot Sense (great stuff) it cures “fast” and “hard” with the aid of a UV light and keeps its shape. Shape, fast and hard and a learning curve gave me an idea. The first flies I tied the heads varied in size and shape but I tried to keep the bullet shape or minnow head shape. After some trial and error I could make the head any shape I wanted and I could also flair the head thus making it swim different ( I was trying to make a dieing or hurt minnow and the head helped, well I thought it would)

So long story short I used the lid of a butter dish (cut the size of a dime) and put a slit in it to a hole I punched with my dubbing needle and slipped it behind the eye of the hook. I then used the Loons Knot Sense and made my head. The head was flat and I didn’t like the results so I stopped playing with it.

I think if you used a longer shank hook 2x or 3x or a large gap hook and used the Knot Sense with the lid or a hackle guard you could make a diving head. (Once the glue is cured the plastic will peal away from the head.)

Hope it gives you some ideas.
IMG_4511.jpgIMG_4511.jpgIMG_4507.jpg

[pittendrigh]

Good idea (molding the head with UV glue). Good looking flies too.
I have some Clear Cure Goo and a UV flashlight. But I haven't done much with it yet.

[Buddy Sanders]

If you want it to 'wiggle' consistently then you have to have the line attach to a point BEHIND and/or ABOVE the point of whichever type diving lip you use. This creates oposing forces, the lip pulling down and the line pulling up, which causes the bait to 'wiggle' from side to side to alleviate this disparity of force.

You also need either weight or bouyancy to keep the bait oriented correctly, othewise it will spin rather than wobble. That's always been the problem with doing this with fly rod weight baits. They are either bulky due to the use of bouyant foam, balsa, cork, etc., or weight too much to cast effectively.

To see this easily, peruse the multitude of liiped diving 'crank' or 'minnow' baits out there for conventional gear. All share a few design criteria that makes them work properly. For the weighted end, take a look at blade baits. 'lipless' crankbaits (the 'lip' is built in to the head) or the 'shaker head' lipped jigs. These use weight to keep the bait oriented when it wiggles.

While it would be nice, you can't just stick a lip in front of, or build one in, to a fly pattern and have it wigggle like a crank bait.

I've ruined many, many leaders trying (the things spin on the back cast like propellers, not counting the way they roll in the water).

Good Luck!

Buddy

[pittendrigh]

If you want it to 'wiggle' consistently then you have to have the line attach to a point BEHIND and/or ABOVE the point of whichever type diving lip you use.

.........That's one way but not the only way to build a wiggler.

This one dives and wiggles well, and it's plenty small enough and light enough to cast well.


http://montana-riverboats.com/index....yout=robopages

Here are a few more. Some of the wigglers that appear in the link above are somewhat difficult to cast. But not all of them.
And you do learn how to cast them--even the bulky ones. Of those photos the Hulagan is the hardest to cast. But I can toss it a good 60 feet any time I want, using an exaggerated slow-motion double haul. The mini-wiggler above casts just fine. And it is a fish catching machine. I've been doing this for a long time. Fly Fisherman once ran a piece called "Is it a Fly?" (or something like that) written by John Geirach. That piece included references and photos to my best work at the time (and AK Best plus a few others)....which was early to mid 1980s, I think. My work has come a long way since then.

Wigglers are fun but challenging to make. And deadly. Make no mistake about that. I do fish them with a #12 barrel swivel 18" above the flure. Small barrel swivels (barrel only, no clip) are handy for numerous purposes. You can clinch-knot two tippets to the lower loop of the barrel, where one tippet is 6" long and the other 24" to 36" long, which makes quick convenient and effective way to fish a dropper. Dropper rigs built with a surgeon's or clinch knot are frustrating because you only get to change the dropper fly once or twice before being forced to rebuild the end of the leader. With a small split ring or a small barrel swivel you can replace the dropper when it gets too short, with no effect on the point fly.

It is always important to evaluate the local fishing regulations. In Montana there are no laws against wigglers. But the following photo illustrates what happened to two unlucky wiggler fishermen in Oregon. So do be careful.

[Buddy Sanders]

Pittendrigh,

In all of your examples the line attaches to the lure both above and behind the end of the diving lip....so I think we agree on that point.

As far as swivels go, if you get the chance, take a look at Roller Swivels. Almost as free turning as ball bearing swivels, much freer than barrels, and not costly. They also come in very small sizes suitable for fly fishing applications.

You can find them at Janns Netcraft or Barlows Tackle.

I think that if I was to fly fish in Oregon they'd close the whole state to fly fishing until I left.....purists of any kind tend to run screaming when I open my fly boxes. Or maybe they are just trying to get away from my errant casting...hooked a bull once..heck of a fight until he realized it was ME that was pullin' on him.....Lucky I can swim....

Buddy

[AtticaFish]

Those all look like killer baits! ooops..... i mean flies. ha! Seriously though, they have me thinking i need to try to tie some and see if i can get some wiggle. Thanks for posting.

[luckie88]

Check out Page 8 in Oregon's definitions. Look at: Artificial Fly, Bait, Lure and Fly Angling. @ http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/docs..._Fish_Regs.pdf

There aren't any law against using these, but only in specific Fly Only areas such as the Metolius, Fall River, North Umpqua (upper 30) and a few others. Would you go to other fabled Fly waters like Silver Creek or the Henry's Fork and wing these out on your fly rod and bait these fish into your death grip of the Inquisition? Your "Hulagan" is just a power bait worm and was the only one that I really have a problem with. You can "tie" that easier by just running the hook through the bait and hot gluing the plastic to the half cut bait, you don't have to wrap it with thread, it would be easier "tie". Most rivers East of the Cascades are Flies and Lures only "No Bait" with the exception of some really really small stretches which you could fish these nicely in. I'm not a purest I really like UV Chewy Skin for some of my stoneflies but not tied in such an obvious manner as baiting a hook. I just think your mad because there are no Steelhead in Montana and they will be here, in Oregon, in a month.

Oh ya, the Fish and Game Enforcement are a division of the State Police, you know the ones with the AR-15s. One of the officers I know is a former SWAT member.

[Lake Erie High Ball]

Thanks luckie 88

Artificial Fly A fly is a hook, dressed with conventional fly tying materials. The affixed materials may be natural or synthetic.
Tied in conjunction with other materials, the following items may be part of the fly: wire (lead or other metal) used
for weighting the fly, dumbbell eyes or beads (metal, glass or plastic). A fly is not a hook to which sinkers, molded
weights, spinners, spoons or similar attractors are attached.