Blue collar, am I the only one around ?

[perch]

AHA!!!
See, I knew it. All of you guys are rich people.
SilverMallard just said so.
You folkes are all the children of wealthy Moms& Dads that have left you all the cash that Midas could have wished for.
Kidding aside , These are all very interesting responses. Did it read as whinning? Sure didnt mean for it to read that way.
I was genuinely curious about the cross section of folkes here and their take on this subject.
Glad I could provoke some thoughtful ideas. I "can" pay for some of the trips I mentioned.
Most of us can. They just seem expensive. Apparently to more than just me.
Im glad that there are folkes that devote themselves to the business of others liesure .
When I quit being "frugal( my wife says cheep) I will get ahold of one of them.
For now my next trip figures in at about 200$for the week(gas not included) on a really nice little river in so.Mo..
Frills = none
Quality of experience =Priceless

[lee s]

Though there is plenty of b--ching and moaning about high prices and low earnings, it does seem that there is GENERALLY much more "excess" income nowdays than many of our fathers were blessed with. Many more "average joes" and blue collar people can do trips if they choose to.
For this I am thankful!
...lee s. (with a blue collar that's dirty! )

[MontanaMoose]

Doug, I understand what you're saying and it's funny, but I've never thought about it that way. All new water means to me is adventure...once I learn I'm going it's better than Christmas...I don't have to catch fish but I can't remember when I haven't when going to new water...talking moving water now...hard to explain but if you're in Albany in the morning I'll try harder. :))

Cheers,

MontanaMoose

[Gigmaster]

My most expensive rod that I own is a Scientific Anglers 8 wt that I bought at Wally World for around $20.00 (on sale). Most of my fishing gear came from Wal-Mart. It all works, and works well.

The 'Elitist' mystique has evolved over the centuries, but I think it only really effects non- fly-fishers. It is a perception gained from the outside looking in. I doubt if any Anglers consider themselves 'Elite'.

I believe it stems from the fact that people that seem to gravitate towards Fly-Fishing (in my opinion) appear to be of the more contemplative variety, as opposed to the 'instant gratification' crowd, with their high-speed bass boats, high-speed reels, and trying to cover as much water as possible in a given time. Anglers mostly seem to just enjoy the beauty of the streams, the quiet nature sounds, the solitude, the satisfaction of a near-perfect cast, and the thrill of an unexpected strike.

Again, just my opinion, for what its worth.

Semper Fi!

[ohiotuber]

cheli38,
YES! I do plan on hitting that show with good buddy Tim Grubbs, who lives up in Luray. I will be in touch. Thanks for the kind invitation. I love these kind of trips....fishing PLUS good time spent with friends & making new friends.
I don't think the ability to take "luxury" trips has ANYTHING to do with being "elitist". IMHO, an elitist would be a "know it all, arrogant snob" & I don't think you'll meet one of those on this site. I certainly haven't, yet I HAVE met & befriended a lot of wonderful FAOLers who can easily afford those trips. The type folks who post here want to learn & share....REGARDLESS of their social/economic background....certainly NOT elitists.
Mike

[SilverMallard]

The media outlets are chasing $$$. Well, the highest ROI for them and their advertisers is to focus on the stuff with the highest profit margins. And that sure as heck ain't a $200 freelance trip to the Ozarks! (not counting gas)

That's what creates the perception. No, most of us will not go to the Amazon to fish for Peacock Bass with our grandkids like Johnny Morris did on his TV show a couple of years ago. But if he had been catching bluegills off the redwood deck of a mobile home in Arkansas who would have paid to advertise on THAT? Maybe Wal-Mart and Zebco...maybe.

Our outdoor media always caters to the affluent and features the "sexy" trips. One of the biggest problems we have in the world today is people's inability to distinguish fact from fiction. Folks seem to think that what they see on TV is "reality." It's quite humorous, but distressing at the same time. I'd hate to think I lived in this world thinking that all women were Playboy bunnies, the only place worth fishing was 2,000 miles from home, and police officers live in beach houses in Malibu or penthouse condos in Manhattan.

[Litehen55]

I have been fortunate enough to fish a number of places in the US, Canada, UK, and NZ. I am planning a trip this year to SW Montana. I love to travel, see the sights, fish new places, learn new methods, meet new folks, etc. I spend money and make it a priority. Do I consider myself an elitist? Hardly!!! I have been fortunate in my life and want to experience all I can.
That being said, I live in Michigan and have a place on the Ausable. If I could never fish anywhere else again, I would be satisfied. But I look forward to an adventure, and spending my hard earned bucks to have one fishing in some new area is my perogative.
Number of years ago, I went to Canada for some brook trout fishing. A nice lodge, guides, all the amenities. Of the 12 fishermen in camp, I was certainly the most experienced, but by far the least well off. The last day my brother and I fished with one of the guides who had spent the first few days fishing with a "captain of industry". Very pleasant day, caught some fish, excellent guide. At the end of the day, he went out of his way to tell us how great it was to fish with a couple of "real fishermen". He explained how insufferable the other client had been. About the weather, the fish,(didn't catch one on every cast) the food, the "rough" accomodations, etc.
Difference was, I would have enjoyed it if I hadn't caught anything, this guy wouldn't have if he had landed a world record. Part of the expense for these destinations is probably putting up with this kind of attitude.

[SilverMallard]

I have been fortunate enough to fish a number of places in the US, Canada, UK, and NZ. I am planning a trip this year to SW Montana. I love to travel, see the sights, fish new places, learn new methods, meet new folks, etc. I spend money and make it a priority. Do I consider myself an elitist? Hardly!!! I have been fortunate in my life and want to experience all I can.
That being said, I live in Michigan and have a place on the Ausable. If I could never fish anywhere else again, I would be satisfied. But I look forward to an adventure, and spending my hard earned bucks to have one fishing in some new area is my perogative.
Number of years ago, I went to Canada for some brook trout fishing. A nice lodge, guides, all the amenities. Of the 12 fishermen in camp, I was certainly the most experienced, but by far the least well off. The last day my brother and I fished with one of the guides who had spent the first few days fishing with a "captain of industry". Very pleasant day, caught some fish, excellent guide. At the end of the day, he went out of his way to tell us how great it was to fish with a couple of "real fishermen". He explained how insufferable the other client had been. About the weather, the fish,(didn't catch one on every cast) the food, the "rough" accomodations, etc.
Difference was, I would have enjoyed it if I hadn't caught anything, this guy wouldn't have if he had landed a world record. Part of the expense for these destinations is probably putting up with this kind of attitude.

Yep! It sure is! I used to run hunting clubs for a bunch of those "captains of industry." I got paid about $60k/year for a job that took about 4 months/year doing what I loved to do. It cost $125k initiation and $30k/year in dues to be a member...if you were invited. They also paid my wife $20/hour plus expenses to run their kitchen and hospitality operation in the lodge. And I am here to tell you I would NEVER do it again for a dime less. I also once got paid $5,000 to just tag along as a fellow hunter on a week long freelance pheasant hunt in North Dakota.

We also have a friend who is a world famous chef who Steve Wynne used to take to his Canadian hunting lodge for 2 weeks each year for a big hunt he put on for friends. He received $28k in salary for those two weeks. The 3 of us were part of the "overhead" (expenses of operation) for 5 star hunting and fishing trips. So, if you do the math keeping these types of prices in mind, it doesn't take long to see why prices can be what they are.

If you go to a truly world-class lodge, they will have gourmet meals, a first rate bar, complimentary designer label cigars, custom high-grade furnishings, and elite namebrand equipment. These places are usually located in relatively remote places with higher than average costs associated with construction, maintenance, logistics, and insurance. If you show up having lost your luggage or having forgotten your guns or fishing tackle, they will have top-of-the-line "loaner" gear or a pro shop from which you can purchase replacements (usually your choice). That means they have Simms waders in ALL sizes, an array of Sage, Winston, and GLoomis rods with Abel and Ross reels, Beretta and Browning double barrel and Beretta and Benelli auto-loader shotguns with the ability to customize the stock and comb fit on-site. And so on and so forth.

Then, MANY of these clients will expect to be the only party there. They certainly won't accept being a part of a crowd! And they will pitch a royal hissy fit if you dare to mention mixing parties. And they will expect to ride back and forth from the lodge in $40k-65k SUVs.

You see, that's the way these folks LIVE. So that's the way they demand to PLAY.

As the outfitter, you have an average of about $1 million to $2 million in overhead just to open the doors. Now you have to pay for advertising. That's another $500k/year to reach that type of client. One decent ad in one issue of the Wall Street Journal = $30k. Then you have to pay your highly professional staff, and they don't come cheap. You buy your insurance from Lloyd's of London or about 3 other equally expensive insurance companies. (a $1 million general liability policy for a low-rent outfitter runs from $1,000 to $5,000/season and $1 million won't even scratch the surface of a lawsuit from one of these types of clients!) Utility costs in such locations are very high.

Now you're looking at a 2-6 month season, during which you can handle maybe an average of 10 customers per week. Realistically, everyone in the hospitality and rec business has to set their business plans at no more than 50% occupancy for break-even. So that's a max of 120 customers per year from which you have to extract something along the lines of $500k per season in order to pay the bills. So that's close to $5k per customer.

And THAT, ladies and gents, is where the $600-1000/day price tags come from! Heck, GUIDES ALONE out in Idaho and Montana are commanding $400/day plus tips! If you actually know what it takes to put on a truly professional day float in the Rockies or Tetons, you realize they can only work about 3 days/week. That's $1,200/week GROSS. I'd bet expenses knock that down to about $700-800/week net income. And that's about $3000/month for SEASONAL work. You ever tried to live in Jackson Hole, Bozeman, or anywhere in Colorado on $3,000/month? It's a pretty Spartan lifestyle!

And...in the end...we're talking about LEISURE TRAVEL. It's not about what it's WORTH. It's about what it COSTS to make it happen...because it's a pure luxury. Do you really think that little piece of metal and rock on your wife's finger is WORTH the price of a car? Heck no! But that's what it COSTS to get other folks to spend their lives getting that stuff from the ground to your wife's finger. That's the nature of the beast with luxuries.

Personally, I enjoy a good freelance trip and camping out under the stars...do-it-yourself. And I love a good cardboard box of Franzia Chianti or a cold Busch beer by a campfire at night. But I have also found that I can often find comfortable indoor lodging with a nice hot shower for about the same cost as camping out. And I don't believe I generally need guides because I can do my own research and enjoy the "learning curve" of discovering new territory. I don't measure the success of "new water" trips in terms of #s of fish caught, so long as there are some.

Thoreau said, "He is richest whose pleasures cost him least." But I can enjoy the 5 star deal or the cheap freelance trip. However...I can usually only AFFORD the cheap trips.

[kjgallaher]

I am still a little perplexed by this thread. Is there such a thing as "reverse elitism". I understand the comments about not being able to afford, or maybe even justify spending a lot of money, (a very subjective term related to your personal frame of reference), for trips or equipment. What I don't understand are the comments that seem to be degrading those that do.

It seems to me there are probably many people that participate on this BB whose very livelihoods depend on us spending some of our disposable income on frivolities such as "exotic" trips, guided fishing, and "fancy" equipment. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fishing for brim in farm ponds and catching trout in our delayed harvest rivers, but I also enjoy fishing and visiting other areas.

If you live and fish for salmon on the west coast are you fishing in an exotic location, or does that only apply to those of us that have to fly there and hire a guide to find our way around in the time constraints of a business trip or brief vacation?

I am curious as to whether most on this BB have been personally insulted by individuals that choose to buy gear that costs more than you as an individual would choose to spend. I have to admit that I am sensing a bit of negative feelings towards those of us that like to travel, hire guides, spend more on gear, etc. I also grew up wishing that I could go out on the boat like the other fisherman could. Now I too have my own boat and enjoy the heck out of it.

The most important thing is to enjoy what you have, when and where you have it. Appreciate your blessings what ever they may be. Don't judge others just because of what they have or don't have, but rather by what they say and do.

Keith

[SilverMallard]

I agree, Keith. And that is why I first clicked on this thread. But I will say that when it comes to fly-fishing media and shotgunning media, there is sort of an elitist bias to the MEDIA. That was my big point: don't confuse the media with the consumers. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to the casual observer. So I tried to explain it a bit. BUT...you have to admit, you just don't see fly fishing ads and tv shows about guys camping out at a bluegill hole with their grandsons. It's all about the high dollar gear and glamorous destinations...Purdy and Holland & Holland shotguns and tweed jackets. When was the last time you saw a guy on a hunting show shooting a Remington 870?

But you DO see fairly typical ads and articles about bass fishing, deer hunting, catfishing, and so forth. The reason is the SAME as why a cheap spincast rod costs $20 and a cheap fly rod costs almost $100. There aren't that many fly fishermen, but it costs the factory close to the same to mfg both production runs. But they can sell 10,000 spincast rods and only 500 fly rods. Do the math, gang. So, if you're spending $30k to advertise to fly angers, who you gonna target? You're gonna target the high end customer. It's all numbers.

The problem is when we buy into the media myth as some sort of reflection of reality. Frankly, here in the Ozarks, you'll meet 100 broke fly fishermen for every 1 "captain of industry yuppie fly fisherman." I prefer to judge reality based on REALITY, not based on the media.

I can see griping about the media. But griping about all the "rich fat cats in fly fishing" IS reverse bigotry and it displays one's inability to distinguish fact from fiction.