Braided line

[Tig]

Has anyone used or made a furled leader made of braided line? If so do they float or at least will they with some kind of treatment (floatant).

Thanks.

[JohnScott]

Has anyone used or made a furled leader made of braided line? If so do they float or at least will they with some kind of treatment (floatant).

Thanks.

Tig -

I have never used braided line for anything, don't even know of what material it is made or how it is made. That said, in all the discussions on this BB about furling over the past 14 or so years, using braided line has never come up as a known or potential material. The silence on that subject probably says it all.

That being said, I see no reason why you couldn't use it to make a furled leader, with the caveat that the material used and the way it is made might not take kindly to the furling process. The closest I can come to that possibility out of the various materials I've used to make furled leaders over the past 17 years, is a kevlar tippet material. As strong as kevlar is when furled properly, kevlar ( at least the version I used ) didn't take to being furled under high stress. It is the only material I have actually broken on my jig while furling a leader - it just kind of blew up.

The question I have is why you would want to make a furled leader out of braided line, what's the objective for what kind of fishing ?? Not really asking, but if you want to discuss that aspect of your inquiry you might get some good ideas from some of us who have been into using and making furled leaders for a long time.

John

P.S. The question whether such a leader would float gets to another topic - floating vs. submerged leaders - that has been roundly discussed on this BB in the past. There have been few advocates for submerged leaders of any kind, but a lot of folks do seem to prefer floating leaders just because that is what they learned on and are stuck to.

[JohnScott]

First of all, the kevlar material referenced above was actually tying thread, not tippet material. Senior moment.

Second, there was a BB thread a while back about Spectra braid, which might be the same or similar to Tig's intended material.

Third, this morning on YouTube there is a video by a fellow named William B. Tedrick using Sufix 10# braid material to build a furled leader.

Tedrick's set up, his jig, and method of furling is similar to that used by a number of folks on the BB. His video is rather long, but should be of real value to those interested in learning about furling and how to go about doing it.

John

[Tig]

Thanks John. I have been furling leaders for a dozen or more years. Mostly mono and nylon thread. I have used mono chord (#3?) for dry fly leaders.
I am trying to find a material that will furl tighter. A friend has furled leaders that he has bought that don't look like any that I have ever seen in real time
or on the internet. Heavy butt section and the points at which it tapers are almost invisible. They are super tight. The ones he uses are 4.5 to 5 ft. in length. Can't remember right now where he gets them but I will find out. He has developed a system of nymphing with them and an indicator that has proven extremely effective. Can't give you the exact setup because I haven't weasled it out of him yet...but I'm still trying. I know that a floating leader for nymphing doesn't sound right but it is. I am heading to Northern Ont. this week but I will try to find the video you mentioned soon.
The braid that I have is made of Japanese UHMPE fibres - ultra high modulus polyethylene fibres extremely strong with very little to no stretch.

Thanks again

[JohnScott]

... got the better of my ignorance. So I did some reading and watched a few more YouTube videos on braided line. No reason at all that you couldn't use it for furling leaders. And a braided line furled leader would probably float just fine with application of an appropriate floatant.

I am still curious about what you are trying to accomplish. Regarding a tighter furl - how much reduction do you favor when you furl your leaders. Way back when, when there were a bunch of folks posting and participating on this BB, it seems most talked about reducing 10%. How that became some kind of standard or norm is something that I never understood.

Personally, I have always gone for 20% reduction ( noting that I only use thread for my leaders, except a couple of nymphing leader made of fluoro which are much different in length and configuration than the thread leaders ). Greater reduction alone might account for the tighter furl that you are interested in. As to a heavy butt section, just add a few loops more for the butt section than you normally do. The combination of more loops on the butt section and 20% or more reduction might get you exactly where you want to be - or not.

If you want or need more strength and less stretch in a leader, braided line may be the way to go. But there may be alternatives to how you furl leaders ( either thread or mono ) that will produce leaders more suited to your purposes.

John

[JohnScott]

I am still curious about what you are trying to accomplish. Regarding a tighter furl - how much reduction do you favor when you furl your leaders. Way back when, when there were a bunch of folks posting and participating on this BB, it seems most talked about reducing 10%. How that became some kind of standard or norm is something that I never understood.

Personally, I have always gone for 20% reduction ( noting that I only use thread for my leaders, except a couple of nymphing leader made of fluoro which are much different in length and configuration than the thread leaders ). Greater reduction alone might account for the tighter furl that you are interested in. As to a heavy butt section, just add a few loops more for the butt section than you normally do. The combination of more loops on the butt section and 20% or more reduction might get you exactly where you want to be - or not.

John

Tig -

No, this is not a sale advertisement.

Wondering how you are doing with your friend, and approaching the issue of using a floating leader for nymph fishing.

A couple weeks ago I happened across a very old thread, while looking for some other information, which included some thoughts from one of the really good furlers on this BB at the time. He suggested furling to 30% reduction to improve the stiffness of even a thread furled leader. I haven't tried it because I much prefer the most supple leader I can make, but it might be something that will work for you.

On the subject of thread furled leaders being used for nymph fishing, yesterday I was fishing one of my "standard" thread furled leaders with about 4' of 4X tippet to a large salmonfly dry fly with a couple small nymphs ( t.c.t.k. and later a flashback PT ) dropped with another 4' or so of 4X. That rig worked just fine with my fast action 9' for 4 wt rod. My thread leaders don't float, by intention and design - they submerge, but will not sink even a small dry fly. For example, after I was done nymphing yesterday, I tied on a size 16 mahogany dun emerger pattern fished on the surface dry and caught several fish with that set up.

Anyway, just thought I would pass along the information for you or anyone else happening across this thread interested in the subject.

John

[JohnScott]

Tig -

P.S. The question whether such a leader would float gets to another topic - floating vs. submerged leaders - that has been roundly discussed on this BB in the past. There have been few advocates for submerged leaders of any kind, but a lot of folks do seem to prefer floating leaders just because that is what they learned on and are stuck to.

Since posting this observation regarding submerging leaders and tippets, I've run across two YouTube videos that commented on submerged tippets. ( I may have commented on the first one previously on this thread but I'm not inclined to check it out. )

One fellow, can't recall who it was or the title on the video, indicated he had recently found the secret to catching more trout. He found that a floating tippet made some light reflection on the water which he thought might put off the trout, so he decided to put a bit of weight on the tippet to submerge it and discovered that that change immediately upped his take count.

Notably, Peter Charles, who has published all kinds of stuff on fly fishing over quite a long time and goes by hooked4life.ca on YouTube, indicated in one of his videos that he had observed floating tippet cause some light reflection on the water surface and found that adding a length of fluro tippet ( I think it was something like 12-24" ) which would submerge the tippet but not sink the fly, obviously eliminated the light reflection problem and increased his hook ups.

I recently broached this subject with Brian Fleschig ( spelling ) at Mad River Outfitters in Columbus OH after watching him have a very poor day on Slough Creek in YNP last fall. His video showed his floating leader clearly visible not that far from what appeared to be a rather high floating hopper pattern - lots of foam. I suggested that a low riding pattern, like the FEB Hopper, fished off a submerged tippet would likely have been a more successful rig. Brian hasn't commented, and I doubt that he will. What came through on his video of his experience on Slough Creek was that he was more interested in selling ( rather expensive ) goodies than catching fishies.

John

[JohnScott]

Notably, Peter Charles, who has published all kinds of stuff on fly fishing over quite a long time and goes by hooked4life.ca on YouTube, indicated in one of his videos that he had observed floating tippet cause some light reflection on the water surface and found that adding a length of fluro tippet ( I think it was something like 12-24" ) which would submerge the tippet but not sink the fly, obviously eliminated the light reflection problem and increased his hook ups.

John

... Galloup to the ( short ) list of folks who advocate adding a section of fluoro tippet to a mono leader when fishing dry flies to eliminate any reflection of light by the leader on the surface of the water near the fly.

In his eight year old youtube video on winter fishing with midges on the Madison River, Kelly makes this point, along with a number of other observations on winter fishing and fishing midges. Investing a few minutes watching Kelly's video is an enjoyable and worthwhile way to pass some time on a winter day.

John

[Tig]

I noticed this thread was active again so I read it over. I had forgotten that I even posted it originally. I read in here where John S. says he had a seniors moment and had made a mistake about something. Well I was able to get another look at the leader that I was talking about and it was not at all how I remembered it. Actually it was very simple. It is made of tying thread, Daniels 3/0 waxed mono cord. Whenever I make furled leaders on a traditional board
I always have 6 strands making up the last section where the tippet ties to. I have never figured out how to make it less than 6 (and with thread I,m not sure I would want to).
The leader in question as I stated earlier is 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 feet in length. It is made up of 6 strands for the whole length. Maybe 8 I have never taken one apart to count but the diameter size looks to be 6. There are no tapers in it. That's why I couldn't see any (duh). There is a strobe loop at both ends. That is the great mysterious furled leader. One thing about getting older, you learn more. If I had remembered how this leader was made in the first place we wouldn't have all the fine discussion that has been generated by trying to figure something out that doesn't exist.
What I have done is played around a little with this leader. I added a butt section approx 10 inches long consisting of of 11 strands. Haven't had a lot of opportunity to use it but did like how it worked on dries ( 16 & 18 caddis).
I figured out how my friend uses them for nymphing. The 4 1/2 are the preferred length. Treating them helps. The tippet length has to be right for the depth of water (and speed of current) so that the fly is close to the bottom without getting snagged. There is a shorb loop in the leader and the tippet (flouro) is added loop to loop style. Indicator yarn is inserted in the shorb loop before the two loops are snugged up. The drawback here is that the indicator material is not adjustable.
You have to know your water or make your tippet longer so that you can trim it back to the right length after a few test drifts. If set up properly the tippet should hang almost straight down in the water under the leader. I am not certain but he might add a small amount of weight to the tippet, perhaps tungsten putty which can be easily adjusted. I am quite sure he adds no weight in the construction of his nymphs. He has been fly fishing for over 45 years and had been guiding full time
for more than 20. Still guides part time and is very successful. There is probably more to this system than I can figure out but that is the basics. Maybe not terribly new to some but he says since using it he has greatly increased his clients success.

Thanks again for all the help and research from those who responded. Sorry for the blooper but that is my favourite part of the movie.
By the way I am still playing with braided line, just have to figure out the "slippery" factor.