Which is the "Soft" Side of the Spine?

[Gemrod]

Sorry folks. Pretty sure this is a re-run....a subject covered somewhere in time. I know how to find the effective spine...sorta.

It CAN be a matter of semantics. I have read a lot about finding the spine and I find opposite instructions.

So let me place my question this way. If I were to place a blank on two book ends and put a weight in the middle the blank will form what looks like a letter C but lying down. A better analogy is it will look from a side view as the outline of a cereal bowl. Let's just say this ceral bowl is 1/4" thick for clairity's sake. Now I have my blank looking like a cereal bowl. Is the "top" or INSIDE of the cereal bowl considered to be the soft side and the outside bottom of the cereal bowl sitting on the table the stiff side?

That woud be my opinion but I do not know physics. Skip Morris book states exackery the opposite. He instructs how to bend and get the curve....but states the inside is the stiff axis and to mark the OUTER side facing the table as the soft side.

I dunno. I just don't understand everything I know.

Bottom line to the question is this.....WHAT is the inside of the cereal bowl axis...is it the stiff axis?

Help please.

[TampaJim]

When you flex the blank, the inside is the OPPOSITE of the primary spine.

Now, here's food for thought ...

1) The secondary spine is almost always NOT directly 180 degrees opposing the primary spine.

2) Would you want the "power" related to the primary spine to assist with a forward cast or backcast? Wouldn't that determine which side to build on?

3) What are you going to do IF the blank isn't straight? Which 95% arent. Are you going to have a "slice" or "fade" due to the failure of the blank to align with your actual cast?



BTW, I build on the straightest axis. It works just fine that way.

[modocdan]

My opinion....... I build on the straightest axis as well, and have had no trouble.
I have read a fair amount about spine orientation, and finding the spine. I have come to the conclusion that it's not really such a big deal as I originally thought. Many builders go for the straightest axis and don't worry too much about the spine, and that's how I've built my last four rods. all seem to be just fine. The only time I get real picky about it is if I am restoring an older rod. In that case I am very meticulous about keeping all the alignments and locations exactly as they were................ModocDan

[dave potts]

This is an age old question among rod builders. Most of the gurus on rodbuilding.org will tell you that it makes no difference where the guides are placed.

Having said that, I generally attempt to find the spine and then place the guides 180 degrees away thus giving a little more strength on the cast.

Dave

[Gemrod]

Yes, TJ. I had a very hard time understanding the spine due to different explanations and wording. I now think I understand the enigma of a thing called a spine. It is the "effective spine" as it changes all the way through the rod. I also have come to the conclusion that now that I know what the effective spine really is.....I don't care anymore. I do not think it has any...or a very minute affect on casting the rod. I have not built enough rods to know...so maybe mine will end up on the spine, opposite, or who knows. I am going to look for the straightest axis or if it curves. If it curves I will put the guides on the opposite of the curve to help straighten the rod. However...let me fetch the book....yep....as I understand your post you state exactly what Skip says in his book. However this post of yours, and his book are a prime example of why the spine is so difficult to describe. I used an anology of a cereal bowl to describe how I think about it. You responded with absolutely NO reference to my cereal bowl. And I asked about the stiff side and the soft side. Your response does not use the word stiff or soft anywhere. Not only that but you used a new term...the Primary Spine. You talk about a Primary spine, a secondary spine and the power spine. None are clear and succinct answers to my question. I should not be stating this as I certainly do appreciate your help and do not want to make you mine enemy. Contraire....I really want you to be my friend because you know a lot and help me. but it is a prime example of why the spine is so difficult to get your arms around.

So I take it from your message that the INSIDE of my cereal bowl is the "effective spine" also know as the Primary Spine, also known as the power spine, also known as the stiff spine. And the outside of the cereal bowl sitting on the table is the "soft spine" and per Skip's book THAT is the spine the guides should be built on.

Whew.....got that out. Now will see how you accept the message. Just an attempt to get the spine issue straight...and to think that I finally got it and know it for sure. What mixes it up is everyone talks in their own terms and not the terms of the questioner....and the spine is difficult enough as it is.

Thank you my friend.....still....I hope

[Gemrod]

Ok Dave Potts.


Now put it in terms I understand. Would you please answer this.

I place the spine on two book ends and a weight in the middle. It now has the shape of a cereal bowl from a side view.

Plain and simple. What is the axis of the inside of the bowl. Is that the stiff axis aka the primary spine, aka the effective spine, aka the power spine? just yes or no to this statement ______

And therefore the side sitting on the table, the 180 off is the soft axis and where you put your guides? just yes or no to this statement _______

Those two answers if just yes or no will nail it down for me. Unless they are wrong statements and then I will have to ask more. But just in plain simple terms are my statements right or wrong. Just yes or now answers.

[Gemrod]

I wonder how you spine a long spey rod? With all it's different movements I would think the effective spine would affect the casting of a spey rod. Perhaps you put the spine in different places on each section?

[ol' blue]

With all it's different movements I would think the effective spine would affect the casting of a spey rod.

I seriously doubt it. If you have one, try putting a 4 piece fly rod together so that the sections don't line up any more. Grip section normal, rotate the second 45 degrees left, the next 45 to the right and the tip 90 degrees off either way. Or any way that you think might matter. Then cast it and see if you can tell the distance aside from shooting through misaligned guides. I'll be surprized if you can.
Like you, after struggling with the concept, I eventually came to the realization that it has no real impact on casting or fishing, and the owner will be much happier with the guides built on straight axis because it won't look defective. If there was a real impact, you can make the case for the crooked looking rod, but since it is purely academic (IMO), it's hard to make the case.

[Gemrod]

Ol' Blue
I have already done almost that. I took my two piece rod to the stream and intentionally offset the tip section 90 degrees. Intent was to observe the difference. I began to cast to specific spots to hook up with fish and fished all morning.....and FORGOT to pay attention to how the rod behaved. I therefore decided it made no difference at all. I am sure in a minute way there was some kind of measurable difference. But to ME...while fishing I didn't even realize I had done it till noon and I decided to take a break. So it was totally un-noticable. I already stated this in a different thread a long time ago. The only objection was it probably would not cast quite the distance as when rigged properly. And that is probably true if you are totally interested in distance. The guides not lineing up would obviously cause extra friction. But for fishing my stream I didn't even notice it.

[ol' blue]

I already stated this in a different thread a long time ago.

Then I can give you credit for being the one to really solidify my then developing opinion. I read that post, and tried it myself. I guess I'm not a good enough caster to tell, but it performed identical to me either way.
Plus I think it looks awful when you look down a rod and see a bend to the side. It looks like you used a second rate blank. Line the guides up on the curve, and it isn't nearly as noticable, if you see it at all.